I'm glad you are taking up the challenge Justin. Its a tough issue.

As an aside - one major workplace change in the last decade has been the increase in contractors.

In research I did with Andrew Cameron a few years back we found contract workers were a group that particularly experienced problems with work/life balance and subsequent marriage problems.

Right, Jeremy. And we could drill down and find other work situations that require prayer and support. Would be keen to hear that from you and others.

In our Lunchtime Forums, I asked the workers what they think 'connecting the dots' would look like. One of them wrote back to me that preachers and ministers need to understand work life and care about workers. But at the same time, not to generalise too much, because it can look like you are trying to connect when you aren't really. And there are so many individual experiences at work that any generalisations can make people glaze over again!

I Quote (anonymously):

One observation I have would be that many of us (at least, me) are quite skeptical about advice/preaching on workplace issues from pastors who may not have the same experiences and challenges as we have. And when a pastor uses generalisations which may not apply to us specifically (eg. working only Monday - Friday, or that we all work for a boss when some of us own the business), it can make us tune out. So I guess I'd try to steer away from generalisations of business people as much as possible.

Thoughts?

I wonder if many of our ministries are more suited to students and the issues they face. Students are asking a lot of meaning-of-life questions and so a heavy biblical/theological emphasis is appreciated as they work through the foundations of faith and broad worldview issues. This is then topped up with some basic ethical guidance (e.g. no sex outside of marriage).

But with the 25-40 group, many have been Christians for a long while and the student-style Bible studies and sermons just seem to be going over old ground and not addressing the more complex issues of work and family. As you write, what they need is help in connecting the dots between what they already know from the Bible and their daily life.

I think one of the problems is our relative weakness at Bible application compared with Bible exegesis. Perhaps our training and experience as professional ministers also pushes us this way. It feels a lot safer giving biblical answers rather than giving time or energy to helping people work through life problems for which we have no easy answers.

It feels a lot safer giving biblical answers rather than giving time or energy to helping people work through life problems for which we have no easy answers.

Right. And you won't here from me to minimise exegesis of the text, nor the proclamation of the gospel. No way! But I wonder whether we need to pray for wisdom, and not only right exegesis.

Brothers,
Thank you to Jeremy for raising this corker of an issue! Phil Nicholson has hit it on the head with

...our relative weakness at Bible application compared with Bible exegesis

. Bible application is a lot "messier" and has perhaps more grey areas than exegesis, which is why it may not be a focus for theological training. As a 30-something husband/father/church musician/IT worker (in no particular order!) who is wrestling with the concept of glorifying God in the whole of life, including my work, I find this particularly relevant.
I have to say that for a large mission field, the marketplace is terribly under-resourced - or is that perhaps under-equipped? Is there a latent group of "normal" people out there who only need some specific equipping and encouragement for their "ministry" of motherhood or office work (or whatever it may be that they spend 70% of their time on)?

This is a good conversation...

Not only that Phil, but a huge proportion of our ministers became Christians through, or where significantly influenced in their own faith by, those univeristy ministries (for which we can praise God!). That is the Bible ministry that they have personally experienced and seen executed so effectively. It is also the basic model they see in churches run by other Uni grads (though it doesn't ever seem to work as well there as it did on campus...).

I wonder to what extent the University model/approach has, in fact, *become* Bible ministry; and to stray from it would be to wander onto dangerous ground, or a slippery slope?

Consider, if these guys - and they are good guys - have gone straight from Uni to Bible College, or have experienced only a year or two of work when it was still a novelty, they may not realise the extent of the disconnect between church and work. It is very hard to diagnose - let alone treat - a disease if you do not recognise that there is anything wrong.

Justin shares something of his "a-ha" experience above. Another minister of a worker's church shared with me a similar experience he had at and following engage 08.

This is a good conversation...

Pleased to be a part of it.

I have to say that for a large mission field, the marketplace is terribly under-resourced - or is that perhaps under-equipped?

I need to say that groups like City Bible Forum, as well as the Cathedral, and others have seen the that city is white for harvest. We thank God for them. We want to join and partner with anyone keep to 'connect the dots'.

I wonder to what extent the University model/approach has, in fact, *become* Bible ministry; and to stray from it would be to wander onto dangerous ground, or a slippery slope?

I ask our readers: True or False?

I know that I was really captured for Christ at University. And I continually wonder why people aren't thrilled now about the things I was thrilled about then. That is, deep down, I'm a product of good work at University. But it cannot be the only model, right?

I wonder if part of the power & effectiveness of Uni ministry is that pastors/chaplains/ministers involved in that ministry often work really hard at understanding their culture, getting into their 'head space', taking time to disciple & 1-1. This reality makes that ministry 'relevant, accessible, life, thought & growth provoking'.

Is it that we need to give that same level of energy, enthusiasm, insight & 'culture relevance' into our workers ministry?

What do you think....

Universities are relatively easy places for pastors and chaplains to get inside. Physically, that is. Not so the average corporation. I held the door open at my workplace for christian ministers to get inside. But you have to stick your neck out a long way to do that.

Enter ... Hillsong!!!
As Brian Houston says, "we preach to people's Mondays, not Sundays"
and, as one Hillsong punter put it, "they have more to say about the small business I'm running than any other church". Of course, the line they draw between these dots might not run straight, but some people are appreciating the attempt.

Is there a danger that we have been sucked into thinking our work defines our identity, rather then being something that puts food on the table.

Perhaps speaking to the workers has more to do with being counter-cultural, dealing with the "who" question rather then giving them small business tips.

Interesting to note that 'workers' here seems to be addressing white collar workers. God led me to leave a professional role and become a support worker for some guys with intellectual disabilities who also have some severe behavioural problems. This also regularly involved shifts from 3pm to 7 am, including sleepovers - support teams covering 24/7/366. Time away from family. Rarely in Christian gatherings [do they call THAT fellowship?].
So would be great to read reflections of others at the 'coalface' of human services work, rather than business and education.

@Sarie -

Is it that we need to give that same level of energy, enthusiasm, insight & 'culture relevance' into our workers ministry?

I would have thought so. Good challenge.

@John Sandeman-

We are thankful to people like you who love their colleagues in this way. And I pray that those who entered the door you opened were equal to the trust you gave them.

Mike Doyle wrote:

Is there a danger that we have been sucked into thinking our work defines our identity...

Mike, I think you're right in that as a society we have sought after our identity in work - just look at the MyCareer articles in SMH for some examples. However, as Christians our identity is firstly as sinners saved by grace; invited to the table of a great King; and our desire should be to serve Him in the whole of our lives, including our work-life.
In response to the second part of your comment,

rather then [work] being something that puts food on the table.

, I would ask is that the sole definition of work? This should be challenged.

Check out the Genesis account: God creates (i.e. works) the world and sees that it is "good" (thereby commending good or excellent work); He "plants" a garden (2:8); He places man in the garden to "work" it and take care of it (2:15). Move ahead to the writer of Ecclesiastes: "A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? (2:24-25

In Dorothy L. Sayers' language,

"[work] should be looked upon, not as a necessary drudgery to be undergone for the purpose of making money, but as a way of life in which the nature of man should find its proper exercise and delight and so fulfill itself to the glory of God"

Blessings,
CH

@Martin --

Enter ... Hillsong!!! As Brian Houston says, "we preach to people's Mondays, not Sundays"

I always love a dramatic Brain Houston entry! ;-) I've been to Hillsong a couple of times, and listened online to a few things. I didn't hear much about 'Mondays' and work. I like the line, and I used a similar one. But what did Brian Say that was applicable to their Mondays?

@Paul --

I'm thankful to God for people who have responded to God in the way you have. Let us know how to pray for you, brother.

I'm hoping no one here is just thinking white-collar. I read back over the comments, and I've seen all types of work being talked about, and the need to address all forms. That was the point of my correspondent in Comment #2. Blue-collar, shift-workers, Caring industry, unemployed, self-employed, you name it.

Hi Chris

Not attempting to make the claim that work putting food on the table is the complete definition of work.

However, if we have been sucked into our society by glorifying work so much that we find our identity in it, how can we best deal with this issue? Or is the core issue just a lack of small business tips in church?

Mike

Mike

@ Mike Doyle:

Is there a danger that we have been sucked into thinking our work defines our identity, rather then being something that puts food on the table.

Perhaps speaking to the workers has more to do with being counter-cultural, dealing with the "who" question rather then giving them small business tips.

Heya Mike. Good to hear from you. Your comment is thought-provoking. But you've just placed two extremes next to each other, asking us to choose. Surely its not a choice between work 'defining our identity' V 'Food on the table'. And no one is suggesting Churches give small business tips. Some comments:

The Bible (or rather God) demands we have our identity in Christ, not work.
The Bible says more about work than simply putting food on table.
The Bible asks us to be counter-cultural in 'whatever we do'.
The Bible doesn't give small business tips.

Love your work. But watch the straw man...

@Mike -- Sorry mate. Crossover.

What do you mean by 'giving small business tips'? I don't know anyone who does that. By 'connecting the dots', I mean that we teach and preach the Bible, asking the identity questions, addressing work, drawing conclusions, and making applications.

The same we do with marriage, family and other important things in life.

I like the Dorothy Sayers quote.

we also lose them because churches haven’t ‘drawn the dots’ for them: the dots between work and faith; between church and life.

I think the concept of calling is important. God calls us into ministry, and I mean ministry in the broadest sense. In every arena of life, people are called to serve God (in the first instance) and neighbour. So called secular work is a place for declaring and working through the Lordship of Christ. Kuyper's Stone lectures at Princeton (1898) should be compulsory reading for every graduate of our institutions of higher learning and I suggest, the subject of vigorous discussion and action. I think many would find this highly invigorating and pertinent in understanding and shaping their career and work, in community, in God glorifying ways

@Justin - hardly strawmen or two extremes. Is not work about (to some degree) putting food on the table? Is there not a (major) problem with getting our identity from work?

What I'm suggesting is that if we work out the core problem, then we can work out a solution. Some solutions suggested is we need more application for work people (in church). And you're right - we do. And we do need to draw the dots. However - if the core problem is one of identity, then that's what we need to deal with.

The direction of the conversation seems to be about work issues. Although the topic is "workers" I think the reasons we are not getting them goes beyond work (i.e. job/career) and includes family, leisure, health, etc, etc. i.e. it is the whole raft of life concerns faced by people in the work force and building young families.

@Mike -- Sorry -- your two questions made it seem like poles: On one hand -- work defines identity (not good). On the other hand, work is a way to simply put food on the table. I thought you were saying that people need to see that work is only about putting food on the table. My fault if I read you wrongly.

I agree with you: Work is (to some degree) about putting food on the table. But it is more than this. And there is a major problem if we gain our identity from work.

And we do need to draw the dots. However - if the core problem is one of identity, then that's what we need to deal with.

OK. And 'drawing the dots' might mean, among many things, raising the identity questions. Absolutely. This is what Keller is famous for in NYC. But it is not the only way to draw the dots.

Just wondering, Justin, if you get your identity from your work? How do ministers handle this issue for themselves?

John S -- Of course, I need to say that deriving one's main identity from work is a problem. We need to derive our identity from being in Christ. But we do not always do this -- which is true of all workers, even ministers.

I think that we ministers ironically battle with identity issues all the time. Success, controls, skills, preaching, persuasion, performance.

How do we handle it? The challenge, I guess, is the same as everyone else's: To claim Christ, and be found in him. To know that I have died, and my life is hid with God in Christ. The righteous are justified by faith, not by church size, preaching skills, leadership gifts etc.

"Although the topic is "workers" I think the reasons we are not getting them goes beyond work (i.e. job/career) and includes family, leisure, health, etc, etc. i.e. it is the whole raft of life concerns faced by people in the work force and building young families".

And I think it is because we have failed to communicate that the Lordship of Christ is over all of life - in work, family the arts, sport, as much as in the Church that we are called to serve Christ and His Kingdom.

I agree with every word in your post, Justin, but I am left with an uneasy feeling that you too quickly smooth over the differences between ministers and other workers.
One difference is that the bible gives a lot of guidance as to what you as a minister should be doing in your working life. This is markedly less so for the rest of us.
So the struggles of the non-minister can feel a lot different from what we hear about from the pulpit.
Dominic, who was the main minister I signed into my workplace, put it well a few weeks ago.
A worker needs to take time to study the Bible. The minister, who will be spending a lot of time in studyin g the Bible as well as having years of formal study of it, needs to take time to study the culture of the workers.
Both groups have a lot of study to do.

Is it that we need to give that same level of energy, enthusiasm, insight & 'culture relevance' into our workers ministry?

Yes Sarie, yes! 1000 times yes.

There need to be many(!) discussions like this one. Even then we will be only beginning to scratch the surface. But already this thread has touched on important issues.

Like access. Most workers are beyond the reach of pastor/teachers, so ministry models must empower the people at the coalface. Whether in a secure office, or on a shift, or a work site, university campus models won't do this effectively.

Like what does it mean to join the dots in our teaching and application of the Scriptures? We must wrestle with both the who and the what (and the why and wherefor) and we dismiss this at our peril. What does “Christ is lord of all” look like in difficult situations of real life?

Like, what can we to learn from others? Yes, Marty, Hillsong are doing better at this than us. I personally had great young workers leave my congregation to join Hillsong and similar churches where they are now thriving as Christians and as ministers and evangelists (sorry folks - fact). And I had even more young workers leave to drift and end up in no church.

Like calling. And so many more areas...

We have conferences, apprenticeships, journals, training colleges, coaches and a thoroughly developed theology and praxis for full-time ministry - and that’s awesome. Time now for the other 97% of Christian ministers?

I am left with an uneasy feeling that you too quickly smooth over the differences between ministers and other workers.

Your thoughts and Dominic's are of great value, John S. And it would be worth exploring how many more differences there are.

And there are some similarities too, which is what I was suggesting. I sometimes wonder if ministers don't apply what they say about work to their own situation. One of those things would be deriving identity from work/performance/gifting, rather than in Christ.

But there are some major differences...

I think this might be a very very important issue for us "sydAng" to work on. My sense has been for some years that we have actually lost the biblical/protestant understanding that all of life matters to God. Years back heard a lady praying at one of our "best" churches, go from praying for ministry staff to "those of us who JUST have secular jobs". It seemed no one was concerned that we had returned to the Roman division of life between seculars and the religious life. It was not her fault, it was exactly what the pulpit had taught us for years. John the baptist spells out repentence for soldiers etc in very clear work terms, I fear we would tell them to seek to evanglise their colleagues - also unlike Paul.
We seem to seek to stress the importance of the eternal by trivialising the present in God's creation. Rather than perhaps prioritising we either/or life + people.
This is a prevailing theological error in our tribe - not that I imagine we will repent in a hurry.
I went to ask some ex-anglicans who attend CCC why they went. They EACH spoke of church that really seemed to help them live and work well. They knew the sermons were not as exegetically rich and safe but found church empowered them to live well for Christ rather than just perhaps to "think" well.
I really do fear we have forsaken our Reformed and Biblical heritage in this area. Hence we have little of substance to say about work which is a big part of life - we are created as workers (Gen1-2) ian p

Thanks Ian.

Had I had more room (last post in the thread) I would have added a precise of the comments from friends who have left some of SydAng's finest to attend charasmatic/pentecostal churches. And I couldn't have captured it better than:

They knew the sermons were not as exegetically rich and safe but found church empowered them to live well for Christ rather than just perhaps to "think" well.

I just pray that we can begin to address the issue - and soon!

Say, Ian... you wouldn't be free to speak at the engage (KCC conference for workers) in 2011 by any chance would you?

;)

I am seriously having trouble understanding the issue. Perhaps I am not appreciating the ‘disconnect’ people are referring to between church and work. Could someone give me some examples to help me in this respect? Aren’t we still part of the church of God at work?

In regards to Bible and application – isn’t the Bible all relevant to work? Isn’t it clear already? The gospel leads us to turn our backs on ungodliness and worldly passions…be zealous for good works, submit to authorities, don’t speak evil of others, avoid quarrelling, be gentle, gracious, show perfect courtesy to all people...don’t sin in anger, don’t engage in sexual immorality, covetousness, impurity, filthiness nor foolish talk, crude joking…These seem very relevant to work or at least my experiences of it.

As for ministers of the gospel they are asked to model ‘double doses’ of godliness and are answerable to God for what they preach and how they exercise oversight. They face all sorts of temptations just like all workers. Is there a temptation that a minister doesn’t face that a worker faces?

It’s not like workers aren’t in our churches. Nearly everyone in most churches are or want to be.
In regards to the 20-45’s age group...perhaps we aren’t preaching the coming judgment and the wonder of the cross very much these days?

I am really sorry if I am missing something.

@Dianne -- You are right to ask if the analysis is correct. I'd be happy to have that discussion if anyone thinks the perception is wrong. (I'm hoping it is wrong.)

Timothy Keller, at a recent resurgence conference, begins his dot-joining with these two premises (which would be worth fleshing out in more detail):

1. A byproduct of work is that it puts food on the table, but is primarily the 'rearranging of the raw materials for the purpose of human flourishing'.

2. The goal of salvation is the new creation. This means some of us (full-time church workers, doctors etc...) will be out of work in the new creation, but others (musicians, artists etc...) will not.

<i>1. A byproduct of work is that it puts food on the table, but is primarily the 'rearranging of the raw materials for the purpose of human flourishing'. </i>

I like the definition. Very similar to the "work is doing something for the benefit of society" - is that O'Donovan?

However - I do wonder if it feels like something aimed at the middle-upper class, whilst for the "average joe" - or the vast majority of humanity, work is just putting food on the table - if they are lucky.

Of course - that doesn't meant he definition is wrong. And that for the vast majority of people it is just putting food on the table may be a result of the fall.

Would love to hear more of your thinking on it.

Mike

@Luke -- did you find Dr Keller's stuff biblically compelling?

@Mike -- rearranging raw materials, of course, is not the only reason to work. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13 speaks about work being something that stops a person from being idol, which is good. It is more than putting food on the table, but this is good in this fallen world. Bonhoeffer is onto this:

“Work plunges men into the world of things. The work of the world can be done only where a person forgets himself, where he loses himself in a cause, in reality, the task, the ‘it’. In work the Christian learns to allow himself to be limited by the task, and thus for him the work becomes a remedy against indolence and sloth of the flesh.”

@Justin I feel I have given you the impression that I'm arguing that work is only about putting food on the table. Let me ease your fears - I don't think that. And haven't disagreed with the other, fuller definitions of work given.

Does the "food on the table" comment grate? It seems to. If so - why?

And going back to my original cultural question - is the idea that work is more then putting food on the table (and let me say again - I do think it is more than that) a particularly middle-upper class idea? Do the majority of blue-collar workers think this?

Mike

A personal reflection...
Our head cleaner for more than 30 yrs at college (and still going), whom many would see as the 'average Jo-anne' (if you like), performed the exact same cleaning tasks every single day for all those years.

She performed these tasks every single day as if she were doing them the very first time, with the highest level of excellence, dedication & commitment. She was not a believer. I certainly could not have done that.

Why?

From her perspective- it was not the 'love of the task in itself', but rather the 'purpose' it served to her, ie a commitment to do her job (no matter how mundane) well, a commitment to a college she loved, but most of all-out of a love for the girls & for us.
I found this extremely compelling as I pondered again the nature & purpose of any work.

The value of her work was less in the task itself, & more in what it achieved for others.

Maybe a touch of O'Donovan there I don't know??

@mike- thanks for clarifying. Although I didn't mean to communicate this to you. My fault. It doesn't grate. I am very thankful for work that feeds my family! Vis-a-vis 2 Thess 3- 'if a man shall not work...'.

Wow for Sarie's cleaner friend. Of course!, it has to be all about love, "others" to quote Willaim Booth. How do we glorify God but by love. Work, of any type will be doing something for others when seen in context - growing food, making cars, auditing accounts, defending your country. I recall Luther speaks of the cow girl milking, preacher preaching and in another place him changing nappies as glorifying God by serving others
Perhaps if we saw more clearly that God is all about love we would know how to speak about work. There is more than this perhaps, but I do wonder if love, seeing our work as love majes all the difference. ian powell

thanks Ian - I think that's helpful. By seeing work as an act of love for others, it helps move it away from a self indulgent activity about self-fulfilment, being the "most you can be" or climbing the corporate ladder, and into the realm of how to love your family, how to love your workmates, how to love the community you're in.

Mike

Really enjoying this conversation. I like Ian's point about recovering the Reformed doctrine of vocation.

Adele Horin raises some interesting issues: nice guys don't get to be managers.

http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/no-power-trips-for-the-nice-blokes-20090714-dk5f.html

Is being a other-person-centred-person compatible with corporate success?

How do we care for christians who are successful (yes there is an eye in the needle) - meaning often that their church involvement is limited?

Many christians will place other things ahead of careers - rightly so. Can we get both sorts to love and care for each other?

How can ministers get insight into these situations to genuinely help?

How do we bridge the gap between orderly exegesis and messy life?

@John -- Five Great questions!

Do you mind if I break them up, and enumerate them. That way, people can take any one of your questions and address them specifically. Hope that's OK:

1. Is being a other-person-centred-person compatible with corporate success?
2. How do we care for Christians who are successful (yes there is an eye in the needle) - meaning often that their church involvement is limited?
3. Many Christians will place other things ahead of careers - rightly so. Can we get both sorts to love and care for each other?
4. How can ministers get insight into these situations to genuinely help?
5. How do we bridge the gap between orderly exegesis and messy life?

Folks -- pick a number and make your comments...

John rasies a big issue
Can nice guys win (big-time) in business or in church including SydAng.
The wise man Lord Acton of "power corrupts" fame, says "great men are rarely good men".
There needs to be a clarity of focus to make big success and that seems to be often accompanied by a ruthlessness in dealing with others Some we deliberately damage, many more of our "better" leaders do quite a lot of destruction to others are "collateral damage". Its not that they want to hurt others, but to build their business or part of Christ's empire they deliberately plan to take from others so they can have. EG? One sees that cleary in way Christian organisations, parishes etc are happy to try to seduce staff from one venture to "their part" with ruthless disregard for the over-all kingdom of Christ. I was urged years back to employ for Barneys a man I had previously worked with at Shore and I felt that was an absurd notiion - "my kingdon come"? Cannabalism.
But you can "do well" humanly as a minister if you are at least a bit bloody-minded and you will rise and be applauded. But at the same time some great men are good and with Whitefild say "let the name of whitefield perish and Christ alone be glorifed"
So too in other organisations.
True service and excellence can lead to great success. But sometimes the good get killed by the schemers, "better" leaders Lovers can "win", but lovers also often lose, nice guys do very often come last - short term.

Justin - on your points
1 - Christian love diligence at work and honesty are very often rewarded with promotion - but not always all the way to the top.
2 - Get over the view that what matters is what happens in our patch, things attached to our parish - godliness is not to be measured by time invovlment in church stuff. We do tend to affirm only those busy in our programs
4 - We can obey James - Be quick to listen and slow to speak. Listen and learn as we pastor and teach. We can do our theolgy better in terms of Bibles concern for ordinary life. Many many more verses about godly approach to work than instructions to evangelise - though I am hot to see evangelsim really happen.
5 - Is orderly exegesis a high biblical concern or a tradition of our fathers. I think I do it, but lets be good protestants and query our values from scripture. I do wonder sometimes if Jesus and the apostles sermons (letters) would be harshly marked in most of our training institutions - I know that might seem like a cheap shot but I fear its worth asking. Anyhow, it is my conviction that we are no where near as good at biblical interpretation as we think we are - but thats another topic.

@ Ian: "nice guys do very often come last - short term"

Yes, this may be so... the comfort for the believer is that 'godliness lasts forever'...

4. How can ministers get insight into these situations to genuinely help?

I know that it's not fashionable nowadays, but, on the advice of my then minister, I spent 6 years working before I trained at Moore (I didn't go to uni). During those 6 years I used to struggle to stay awake at Bible Study; I would often have to go out of church during the middle of a service to answer a page when I was on-call; I struggled to know how to be godly in the hotbed of office politics etc. I found this experience invaluable when it came to relating to workers that I was ministering to.

When I left full-time church based ministry and (kind of) re-entered the workforce (after 11 years away) through my role at SMBC, I realised that I had underestimated just how flexible church based ministry was with regards to the use of time. I had forgotten how tiring and annoying commuting could be. I also realised that workers with kids have very little respite when they walk through the door each evening after a hard day at work (I had no kids when I worked before college).

I agree with Ian that good listening needs to happen but there's nothing like experience. Maybe we need to enable our church based workers to be able to spend a couple of weeks or a month every 5-7 years working 9-5 in St. Andrew's house (or somewhere else) so that they can get an updated taste of the working life.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

.. as they say: 'walk in our shoes'...

If you pastor a commuter belt church - why not catch the train / car pool to the city with some of your city workers once a month.

Great chance for some discipling and networking for a day...

Mark, I agree with a lot of what you've said and expressed.
Experience is invaluable, as is really listening.

I spent 3 1/2 years working in a 'secular' workplace in the city. I also spent 1 year working part-time in the same workplace and part time MTS.
Everyday I had opportunities to stand for Christ.

I am so thankful to God for the woman who committed herself to meeting with me 1-1 in the years before MTS, helping me to have a biblical understanding of work and generally living as a Christian.
We often met on benches just outside my office building. She often prepared studies for me on the topic of 'work' and would always ask me how things were going in the workplace. ie: How am I going sharing my faith with colleagues? Am I making God centered decisions at work? Am I resisting the temptation to use work stationery for my own use without paying for it? etc etc.

I really do believe in the value of 1-1 ministry. Both for the equipping of the secular worker and for the understanding of the full-time ministry worker.
And in meeting 1-1 with more mature Christians, ministry staff can equip them to meet with others and do the same thing. I think we often undervalue the power of 1-1 ministry.

I understand where you are coming from with some of these suggestions.

I wonder whether it might have more more to do with, engaging with, meeting up with, & 'walking in our shoes' through empathetic listening & encouraging.
Working hard at meeting people 'where they are at' in our understanding rather than 'doing what they do' specifically??

I know that I will never completely understand the pressures & demands of a high flying corporate businessman who jet sets across the world for 6 months of the year, just as they might not completely understand what the pressures & the daily discouragements there might have been for me as a school teacher struggling on a single wage, in an ever demoralizing & grossly underfunded public education system.

I wonder if 'walking in the shoes' of anyone has more to do with empathetic listening & a total commitment to serve & bring God's wisdom to what we discover there, than anything else?

Just a thought...

Ps. Ditto Christine!

2. How do we care for Christians who are successful (yes there is an eye in the needle) - meaning often that their church involvement is limited?

Well for starters, we can encourage them to serve by being generous with the money that their success brings them.

If you pastor a commuter belt church - why not catch the train / car pool to the city with some of your city workers once a month.

That's certainly a good start.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

@Mark,

...I had underestimated just how flexible church based ministry was with regards to the use of time...etc

I'm glad to hear you say this. I've long thought that clergy - especially those who have been in ministry for a while - have very little concept of how flexible their time is compared to an average worker, and what this means in terms of a good work/life balance.

The commuting issue alone is huge. It's not unusual for Sydney workers to spend 2 to 3 hours a day getting to and from work, whereas most ministers live, if not on-site, then probably within 10 minutes of their church.

This not only gives them a couple of extra productive hours a day, but also makes it easy to pop home for lunch with the wife, or to drop the kids at school and still be in the office by 9am.

If there's young kids involved, they're also more able to be around in the early evening to help with baths etc. when most of Sydney is sitting in traffic or on trains.

I have two kids under 4, and during the week I see them for about 30 minutes over breakfast, and then again for between 30 to 60 minutes when I get home (depending on how bad the traffic is). Compared to some of my friends, I'm fortunate to be able to be home in time to read stories and put them to bed.

I think your idea of sending ministers off to secular jobs occasionally has merit. Perhaps then they won't be so quick to fill my Saturdays with conferences and breakfasts :-)

On the flip side: its important for ministers not to get discouraged if their workers cant make it to breakfasts, conferences etc. Its important to understand why some time slots are so tough for commuters.

Living in the Mountains this idea of evening ministries/events starting at 7pm on a weeknight its crazy given the main commuter trains would only be arriving around then.

The commuting issue alone is huge. It's not unusual for Sydney workers to spend 2 to 3 hours a day getting to and from work, whereas most ministers live, if not on-site, then probably within 10 minutes of their church.

They could move into the City. I know some great places on Kent St. You may get a small apartment, but the city is friendlier to families that most people imagine.

:)

(Just an aside.)

@Christine:

We often met on benches just outside my office building. She often prepared studies for me on the topic of 'work' and would always ask me how things were going in the workplace.

Any chance that person has the studies still around? PM me. If the person was willing, I'd Blog about them. (Or not -- I'd just like to see them.)

They could move into the City

The difference in rent between the suburbs and the city for a family with kids would be pretty big I'd imagine. Why not just go part-time instead? Same result financially, more available for church stuff. :-)

This not only gives them a couple of extra productive hours a day, but also makes it easy to pop home for lunch with the wife, or to drop the kids at school and still be in the office by 9am.

If there's young kids involved, they're also more able to be around in the early evening to help with baths etc. when most of Sydney is sitting in traffic or on trains.

My wife particularly mourned over my loss of time flexibility caused by my move out of church based ministry to work at SMBC for the reasons listed above.

I think your idea of sending ministers off to secular jobs occasionally has merit. Perhaps then they won't be so quick to fill my Saturdays with conferences and breakfasts :-)

I understand where you're coming from re the Saturday thing. What makes our lives more hectic than I'd like is the fact that 3 of our kids go to really good church kids programmes that are on different nights of the week. So 3 nights a week I get off the train, race home to get the car and go and get the kids. It means having dinner and kids in bed later than we would like. 'The dots could be joined' by putting these groups on the one night.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

They could move into the City.

Justin, your suggestion (partly tongue in cheek, I hope) would be like saying to someone who lives in Queens, 'you could always just move to Manhattan'.

It's one of the big problems of our city that there are a few major business centres (Sydney, Nth Sydney, Parramatta etc) with lots of dormitory suburbs a long way away from them - and bad transport options to boot.

This is the reality that full-time ministry workers need to take into account in helping people join the dots.

Of course, part of that helping will be to challenge workers to think about things like where they live, how much time they spend at work etc.

Why not just go part-time instead?

Nick, I'm not sure what you do for work, but going part-time definitely wouldn't give me the same result.

My full-time job gives me enough to live in the suburbs, I'd need two jobs to afford living in the city (in anything bigger than a shoe box)

@Alan -- We moved to Manhattan with kids, and could have lived in Queens. We wondered if we could live in a Shoebox (kind of) with kids, and found that we could. Sometimes it requires a change of mindset, and God gives people what they need to sustain the choices they have made in faith. We found that there were more things for families in a city than we thought. That is true of the Sydney CBD, I think. But, to be fair, more so in Manhattan -- a city that has worked hard to bring people back over 20 years. I'm hoping that the CBD and OBD councils are thinking along the same lines.

This is not for everyone (domestically or financially), but some people may decide that it is what God has for them for a season.

There is a couple at our church here that moved from the Shire to the city to reduce the commute. They looked into an inner suburb, and decided that even then it wasn't close enough to their work. So they moved to Kent St and live in a 'shoebox', and are happy.

As I say, not for everyone. But for some, it is of God.

(All this is true for City, North Sydney, Parramatta, Hurstville, Chatswood etc)

And if you can live in a small space - with Hyde Park as your backyard it is the way to go! I'd know - I'm a city dweller who lives on her own in a 49m2 unit (not so much a shoebox). You save money on travel as well as having more time. And there are so many fun things to do in our beautiful city.

As Justin says, city living is not for everyone, but it is worth SOME considering.

I may have this wrong, but here's a quick comparison: 3br house in the hills approx $500k. Big 2br unit with sunroom in city (90m2) approx $620k. So for an extra $120k (approx 10k pa) you save 3 hours a day travel time and approx $2,500pa in transport. Net financial cost per year $7,500. Anyone want to come and help us reach the city?

To link this with another blog:
http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/ministry/modernministry/a_day_away_is_no_getaway/
Perhaps this time pressure being faced by commuters is one reason why churches are finding it difficult to get members to attend Church Houseparties?

Can we add 'repetition' to the list of issues relevent for ministry to workers?

In my short working career, I'm not sure I figured out how to think Christianly about the repetitive aspect of work (i.e. that today activities might look largely the same as yesterday's, and tomorrow's).

What's more, that very repetitiveness means it's not just a theoretical issue, but a practical one: those little failures at 'working in a Christian way' can easily become ungodly working habits. It's then all the harder to let the Bible do its work on changing the way that we work.

Allan,

Nick, I'm not sure what you do for work, but going part-time definitely wouldn't give me the same result.

I was actually suggesting that working part-time living in the suburbs would (theoretically) be the equivalent of working full-time living in the CBD (with kids). A quick scan of inner-city rentals suggests a 2br apartment will set you back about $600+ whereas you can live very comfortably for about half that in the suburbs (at least where I live anyway) :-)

Nick's $600+ figure is more than I pay on a mortgage for a 3/4 bedroom place in the mountains. If I were to move into the city, even squeezing my 3 kids and my wife into two bedrooms, I would still be spending nearly 50% more than I currently do, just on accommodation. The cost of our house is such that my wife isn't forced to work. The price of our house is that I don't see my kids anywhere near as much as I want to (they are usually fast asleep when I leave, and when I get home).

Also, whoever thought of Men's Breakfasts should be shot ;)

If mum is at home with the kids, I suspect the family will not be able to afford to live in the city. But it's worth revisiting the question when the kids reach teenage years and Mum is back at work (assuming that's what happens).

Teenagers love living in/near the city. My eldest, Justyn, lives with me in Annandale, and he thinks it is fantastic. They are much more independent because public transport is so good, and there are heaps of things they can do. I don't have to drive him anywhere. Sport, movies, restaurants, shops - he can either walk or catch the bus. Parents of teens in the suburbs spend their whole lives driving their kids around.

Another great advantage is the schools. I haven't done an exhaustive study, but the public high schools seem *far* better in the city than their suburban equivalents. For the HSC, Justyn has a choice of over 100 subjects. He can even do a subject up at Sydney University for credit, and he can do vocational subjects over at Sydney Tafe in Ultimo. His school has it's own boat shed, and he can do kayaking and rowing every morning if he wants, as well as a massive range of other extra-curricular activities. The school also regularly places students on the various merit lists and has an excellent academic reputation. And this is a *public* school!

Moving a family is a massive undertaking, I know. But there are some advantages...

Also, it may be that a better financial option is the keep the suburban house and rent it out, and just rent an apartment in the city.

Good reflections all, and people are free to keep commenting re living closer to the cities. But I didn't want to hijack this thread -- my comment (#56) was just an aside.

@Ian -- Some people can do the Breakfasts, of course. I've seen it work before. It works especially with seasoned workers who have more controls over their time. But not if you are commuting for an hour and the rest.

Justin - Good idea to leave the moving to the city discussion. Frankly it will finish up being words words words. Nearly no one is going to do it.
Me thinks it will help us avoid tougher self critcial anaysis.

@Justin: I think the commuting issue is definitely a huge part of it though (and housing costs are part of the reason for the commute). I see plenty of people on the train who are leaving earlier in the morning and getting home later than I am (there was a guy sitting in front of me who lives in Blackheath, and is commuting to the city every day - and he is on a later train in the evenings too!).

If people are spending the vast majority of their time working, and getting to work, then for many of them, going out again on a Sunday is just not going to be a priority - either because it feels like more 'work', or because they are just exhausted.

Oh, and my tongue was firmly en-cheeked when I was talking about the Men's Breakfasts. I even went to one. Once. About 8 years ago...

@Ian T-- I hear you.

But even still, this discussion has become about what workers can do in a Church: get involved, go to breakfasts, be at Church, what ministers think they can do at Church.

But (as Brother Ian P points out), I'd like there to be more 'connected dots' between faith and work at work! Some o' that ol' Reformed stuff.

What does it mean to 'belong to Christ' (Romans 7:6) at work? What does it means 'bear fruit for God' at work? It will probably mean speaking about the hope we have. But it will mean so much more, right? This shouldn't only be about time and commitments, but (as has been said) love and gracious witness.

@ Justin. Sorry for the delayed reply..
Sure, I'll check and see if the studies are still around. Will let you know.

Justin, sorry for taking the thread off-topic.

What I was trying to get at is that if ministers want to help us workers 'join the dots' between faith and work they need to first understand what the daily grind is like, and commuting is simply one example where the minister's experience is likely to be vastly different from the average parishioner - especially in suburban churches.

Now to one of your questions...

When I worked in secular organisations, belonging to Christ at work started with simple practical things: being diligent and doing a good job for my employer; being courteous and respectful to my co-workers; not being the first to arrive and the last to leave so people knew that work was not the sum total of my life; being open about what I did on the weekends; refusing to work on certain projects when they conflicted with my Christian ethics.

I was never preachy and didn't try to manufacture opportunities to get the gospel into conversation, but I found it remarkable how often people would come and talk to me if they wanted a listening ear - sometimes with quite personal issues.

Of course, much of this translates into the Christian workplace I'm now in - although I have worked for some Christian organisations who treat their employees worse secular organisations - but that's a different topic.

@Justin

What does it mean to 'belong to Christ' (Romans 7:6) at work? What does it means 'bear fruit for God' at work?

thanks Justin, these really are the core questions in every aspect of life, no matter what we do.

When we focus on 'what does the church expect of me'? or 'what does my minister expect of me' we to start at the wrong point.
This can often only lead to resentment, or a sense of 'what do they understand of my life, my situation'?.

The challenge for each of us (be it f/t ministry or in the workplace or at home or...) is
What might 'God' expect of me here, at this time, in this place, with all that he has given me, with all that he might have set for me?

Allan's points are excellent (sorry to seem so obsequios)
JIm Bates did a huge, huge study on what is actually being preached in Sydney and noted that really ony two things were preached, no matter what preacher thought he was exegeting. Firstly are you saved? Secondly are you sharing gospel. He said he it really seemed we did not have a theology of Christian living - which has work so very central (again Gen 1+2 + Eph etc). AT a chruch I used to atend I used to ask workers how Jesus affected their work life - the ONLY answer I got was about trying to share the gospel.
We (ministers) neither understand the real stresses of life (including communting etc) for most nor are we truly reformed in our theology and therefore our teaching of life. The best we can do often is talk about important trivia (don't steal pens and perhaps time from employer)
If we live righteously as God's workers we will shine as lights and very often people will trust us and talk with us. But it often takes time. My best evangelistic conversations with the teachers when I was working in a school for 9 years, was at the pub after some time there and often at the point where I was pretty bored with qulaity of conversation and about to go home to do something "useful". Love always means time and busy SydAng Christians rarely spend out of work time with our work mates, often are the least time friendly. No base to challenge etc with the wonder of Jesus. I say this aware I am generalising.
ian P

JIm Bates did a huge, huge study on what is actually being preached in Sydney...

Is this available anywhere?

Craig - I'll check with him. (ring me at BArneys) He was going to publish it (He is a highly trained clincal Psych and Westminster theolgy degree). I think he didn;t becasue he felt it might be too discouraging to the "laymen" who could do little about it.
Higher officials igvored it and frankly quibbled about method. Ostrich's do not only live in Africa - oh and "De (the) Nile aint only a river that folws through Egypt".
ian P

@Christine,
I have come across a range of studies geared towards workers:
*Going to Work with God (Robert & Linda Banks) - available at Bible Society Bookshop in Sydney;
*Going Public with your Faith - published by Focus on the Family/Zondervan;
*Business Alpha - www.businessalpha.org.au;
*City Bible Forum (CBF) runs a range of different training courses including "Six Steps to Talking about Jesus" which is geared to sharing with work colleagues.

Just to name a few...
I am also reading R Paul Stevens: "Down-to-Earth Spirituality: Encountering God in the Ordinary, Boring Stuff of Life" (Publisher: IVP), which is an invigorating look at the Genesis account of the life of Jacob - recommended reading! Not just about work but about family, marriage, eating, sleeping, etc. - literally all the "normal" stuff of life, infused with an awareness of who God is.

For some other great examples of how the Church can assist the "9-to-5 crowd", check out the Lausanne paper #40: Marketplace Ministry (pp.41 ff) - http://www.lausanne.org/all-documents/lop-40-marketplace-ministry.html

Blessings,
Chris

Thanks Ian, I'll be in touch...

For non clergy ...
What do you want said from the pulpit about work that is not apparently being said?

For clergy...
what do you say in the pulpit about 'work'?

Di

I have noticed that we teach others how to be a christian at school or at uni but we don't teach people how to be Christins at work. For example being a christian at uni is seen as going to campus bible study or being involved in ministry of some kind. But when you start work you may not feel your a Christian anymore because you find that you are unable to be involved in such things because work can take so much out of you. Also as an adult with no kids you seem to just wake up goto work then go to sleep then repeat for 5 days a week.

Great conversation... although I think it is ironic that there was some time spent talking real estate (so Sydney!). I think recapturing the reformed message of vocation is a central dea. And it goes both ways. Workers (full-time Christian and secular and unpaid) need to see all the aspects of their lives as called to submission to Christ. We also need to see all of it as being used to sustain God's creation and enhance his kingdom.
I think it was very ironic that I was at a meeting of Bible colleges discussing their values. A value was mentioned of all theological education being applied to every aspect of life. One of the Principals of a college disagreed and talked about a "higher" calling = to train full-time Christian ministers. Every time we make such a distinction between higher and lower callings we devalue what someone is spending the majority of their life doing, or we make them think God values it less or can't use it as much.
In terms of how God can use our work.. there are lots of possibilities:
Focus on the Word = run prayer meetings, Bible studies or talks at lunchtime in your workplace.
Focus on holiness = work to the best of your ability, showing character and values that honour Christ.
Focus on social justice = look out for those overlooked in the workplace or underpaid, help monitor the ethics of the company you work for, run fundraising compassion projects.
Focus on prayer = pray constantly through your work day, bringing everything/one before God.

@Dianne.

It's a very difficult question to answer with precise examples, because every work place is different (which highlights the difficulty for preachers), and in the end I'm responsible, not the preacher, for applying the truth of God's word to my particular work/family/church/hobby/sport situation.

But certainly we should hear more than simply 'look for opportunities to evangelise your work colleagues', or, 'you should work less so you have more time for ministry'.

I suspect there's a broader issue underlying the work thing - one of work/life balance (to use an over-used phrase). That is, I may need to hear 'work less so you can be a better husband/father/son' or perhaps even, 'do less at church so you can be a better employee'.

If Jim Bates' study that Ian P mentioned is correct then clearly there is more that can be done in giving workers the principles they need to apply their faith in the workplace.

Ok, ironically I have just finished work (too tired to concentrate any longer and trying to muster energy to go the gym).

I am a full-time city worker. Been working for 13 years. Always full-time.
I have to say - AMEN to this discussion. We do struggle. I went from working close-ish to home to working in the city. I easily spend 2 hours a day travelling. And then 9 hours working on average.

How much energy do I have? Well, I try to exercise after work, which means inevitably I don't get home until 8.30-ish. I don't have kids or a husband, so one can presume that my exhaustion is easily doubled.

I rarely cook. I rarely eat anything worthwhile in the evening. Every Wednesday I struggle not to fall asleep at bible study, even though my bible study is interesting, engaging, godly and they are the most wonderful people.

Full-time work is exhausting. Commuting is exhausting. I am ... exhausted.

The workplace is an evangelistic mission field, yet at the same time a mine field for a Christian, who may have to confront ethical decisions, pressures of work, doing overtime and so on. Just like we look at the culture of our area and people who attend church, we need to think about the lives of those who are in the church, the mother of 2 children, the uni student and 40-hour per week worker, who may be stressed because he needs to work more hours to do his job, or that everyone around him are being made redundant.
I have been part of prayer groups with city workers, and who are like-minded having or had experienced similar situations, is helpful in encouraging and supporting one another and praying for each other. Perhaps there is something in that?

I read this quote earlier in the year which suggests a view of pastors connecting with workers:
"I have a proposal to make: Every theological student preparing for pastoral ministry should spend a semester in the workplace listening and learning how to empower people for full-time service in the marketplace. Every pastor should spend one day a week with members of her church in the workplace setting, listening and praying. Every professor of theology in a seminary should spend two weeks each year in a professional office or a factory".
- R. Paul Stevens "Doing God's Business"

Thanks Allan

I am thankful for having experienced very faithful teaching of the scriptures for a lot of my Christian life. However I had a short taste of perhaps what some may be talking about eg the conclusion of every sermon – tell people about Jesus. It can be so deadening to one’s spirit!

I think it’s perhaps a failure of the teacher to understand and communicate what God does reveal to us in scripture. (poor exegesis??) Surely every page of scripture is relevant to life always – it is always about our wonderful God, his purposes and the privilege of being one of his.

These days I suspect there are sermons that fail to focus us on the cross and the glorious salvation we have. Hearers are robbed of the very motivation to live as servants of Christ in our homes, our neighbourhoods, our work places…

As we gather we should acknowledge it is a difficult life we are all having and so we should be teaching each other from God’s word to persevere and make wise choices.

I think there are enormous pressures on people who work, more than ever these days in some situations. And enormous difficulties raising families in our context. We do need to care for one another in this regard – bear one another’s burdens.

How helpful to hear…
You must be exhausted from shift work this week. Here, I cooked you a meal.
You look tired. Thanks for organising this event…I’d like to mow your lawn for you this week.
Can I pick up your kids for kids club this week?

@Kara: So your thought is that we connect on these four levels:

The Word
Holiness
Justice
Prayer

Good list -- the gospel of Jesus addresses all four. Anyone want to say that there is anything missing from that list?

I'd say let's hear what God has to say from his word on everything...

When I was in 5th class my teacher named me devil's advocate, meaning (i discovered) that I tend to tbe contrary - sorry
Darren - I really want people to get saved, I think I'm an evangelist, however you say, as you have been taught "workplace is evangelistic mission field" My heart says yes but my mind wants to ask - is there anywhere in the scriptures where work is spoken (or even a hint)of in those terms? Isn't it the place where you are paid to work? Not good enough to say the NT assumes this will be your attitude - it doesn't assume we will love each other when surely that's so obvious as God is love, God keeps on telling us to do the obvious. Are we not in trouble if our way of speaking is not an echo of what God says. At work, you are to work and work hard. Are we sure we go to work as missionaries? BAsed on ...?
You also say "work is minefield" No more than at home or at church - is there any where where scripture speaks of work like that. Now of course there are opportunities to do good and to sin everywhere. But having people going to work thinking its especially difficult ethically and at the same time its really not about what I'm paid to do but about evangelsing sounds like a recipe not obvioulsy derived from scripture and therefore probably not good.
I also think Georgina's experience needs to be taken very seriously
Many Christians earn their living as she - working hard, long hours - exhausted, feeling bad about christian stuff. Wisdom?

@Dianne -- of course. Kara's comment was about specifically reading God's Word and speaking the gospel to people who aren't yet Christian.

Sorry if I have misunderstood.
I was just thinking along the lines of gospel focussed conversations on a whole range of issues as there is opportunity....as I relate to non christians at work eg suffering, anger, pride, family issues, marriage, sexuality, other religions, eating pork, clothing, gambling, pleasure, lust, porn...
Di

I wasn't suggesting that work is ethically harder or a harder place to be a Christian then at home as a parent, or at school or university, but in my experiences I hear preachers addressing these issues, but I hardly hear examples given of applying the Bible to the workplace, or encouraging people in their situation at work.

People go to work to earn a living. We are to work and not be idle. Yet as Christians we do have God's Word and His Wisdom. As Dianne has said, there are opportunities of gospel focus conversations while at work, and as we relate to non-Christians. Hence my comment, that the workplace is a "mission field", just like school, university and so on.

Georgina's case is serious. I have been there, working 8 hours a day at least and traveling 2 hours to work and 2 hours home. Tiredness and work pressures can lead to someone not wanting to go to Bible study 5 minutes after they get home from work. Workers need to be encouraged and supported.

Just another thought.
Some in church can be quite parochial in thinking about evangelism and welcoming new people. Others relate to work colleagues who are well out of range of the parish. This can lead to a sense of 'disconnect' for some. So, if you do bring a friend from some distance to the church there is a good chance they will not be treated as 'gold'.

So what are some good ideas to evangelise fellow workers? How do we support people who try to do this?

Di

Darren - my apologies for misunderstanding what you were saying and so misrepresenting you. It is a pain to be misheard.
I think my general point stands at least concerning the strangely non-biblical ways syd preachers do so often think of and therefore speak of work. Mission field and oh be careful about stealing those pens seems to be the tenor, and oh don't work too hard - (or you won't be able to do the real God stuff - ie come to our home groups and lead in our church-based ministries.) Maybe I am too cynical but I do think we lay stuff on wrokers God simply doesn't - that is bad shepherding. A gal at Barneys last year won the employee of the year award at her place of work and that is exactly what one would expect for those who take seriously the themes of eph 6, col 3 i tim 6 and tit 2. She is very diligent, organises some of small social events and is cheerful in a very difficult situaltion with less than perfect people above her. I would think she has "adorned the doctirne of God our Saviour" as Paul says in Tit2. She has done her God given duty as scripture says. On what basis do we then say - "ah but has she shared the gospel" etc Please don't mishear me - I think I want Christians to share the news of Jesus grace and kingship but we do need to be careful when we don;t say what scriptures says about work (ior anyother area) and keep saying what scripture does not say. We are captives of another agenda - a kind of good one - but still not from bible

Noting Georgina and Duncan's comments - here is one dot that needs to be connected...

.. can we have *some* preaching on the role of 'rest' in a godly Christian life. After all the idea of 'rest' in the New Kingdom it is a fairly core biblical theme.

This would touch on issues of workholism etc and when saying 'no' to unfair requests from ministers to take on extra responsibilities at church is reasonable and not sinful :)

Just to clarify - I travel an hour each day each way (total 2 hours) not 4 hours. But I don't live far from the city - only 9km. Just a slow bus means a slow trip.
The other thing is, ENGAGE is the best thing since sliced bread. I'm disappointed I can't make it this year. Out of all the conferences I've been to, ENGAGE has most pointedly reached where I was feeling and left me encouraged, supported and encouraging others. So go ENGAGE.

@Jeremy
On this issue of workaholism and rest, check out Tim Chester's great book The Busy Christian's Guide to Busyness, especially from p25-35.

Chester provides an interesting concept called "binge rest", and brings us back to the biblical 6:1 work:rest ratio.

That book is amazing. Just reading as I eat lunch (at my desk - lol). But seriously, check it out people. Unfortunately I can only read a few chapters online (which is more than a usual book - don't get me wrong). I'm going to buy it :)

At every page I was agreeing "Yes, yes, yes, yes ...."

@IanP -- We need to keep the torch on us -- so we can continue to become the people God wants us to be. But I reckon we do and say a little more than:

"Mission field and oh be careful about stealing those pens seems to be the tenor, and oh don't work too hard..."

:) I get your point. We need more. I agree with you that the lady at Barney's (as far as I know etc etc) was doing the right thing. We are called to live holy lives, and to work industrially etc.

@Jeremy -- We do speak about Rest, but again, not always applied.

@Georgina -- thank you for grounding this discussion in a reality that is not only true of you, but many of your colleagues.

[aside] We had our stuff moved in to our new home today. Three guys moved our stuff, and they were salt of the earth. None Christian, as far as I can tell. But I was very thankful to God for their kindness and industry. We bought em all pies for lunch. Work well done is just plain good. Mucho more needs to be said as to the uniqueness of working as one who works for Christ, but they inspired me to just produce something good from one's day... [/aside]

@Georgina - happy to be of help! Great discussion, everyone!

I'm a Sydang virgin, (First post indeed first blog I've been vaguely interested in.)
Really stoked that there are people that can shift debate, that are thinking hard about this.
Been a worker/employer that has often felt ill at ease at the churches I've been at, as when the bible is applied its more often than not, to make "church" run better/more encouraging/hipper/less selfish.
So I am left with making it up as I go for the rest of the hours of the week.
It really shouldn't be so.
The issue of my earlier church years was that church became so fragmented and delineated age and maturity wise (families morning youth night) I had no examples either.
It wasn't until circumstances forced me to go to a multi age/multi background church that I realised that though uncomfortable, the value and richness of imbibing more mature christian life experience was paradigm shifting.
On the mission/evangelism front at work I have had two of my bosses become christians, but never with the agenda of converting them..... It just happened over the course of business ...ie it apparently appeared quite obviously to my bosses at the time that I did things with different motivation.
I'm with Ian on this, if all work is is a mission field (rightly or wrongly) then my workmates become projects. But on the other hand if there is an overflowing of the goodness and greatness of God in my life then I think its infectious. I want the Jesus virus to spread!
I'm lovin this thread!

@Jon. You're input here is so valuable.

Can you give some examples of what you mean by 'Church' specific application? Are you talking about exhortations to come to Church each week, bring friends, volunteer etc...?

Also, I love your 'Jesus virus' idea.
Can you explain what you mean by being frustrated that you are 'left with making it up as I go for the rest of the hours of the week'.

Are you wishing preachers would give you more concrete ways you can serve Christ in your specific context?

Or are you wishing preachers were be better at preaching transforming sermons, motivating their hearers, so no specific 'working it out in practice process' is even needed at work. It is intuitive, and just happens, (like a virus) because of a deeply transformed attitudes/worldview?

Or do you mean something else?

Couple of thoughts:

1. I like my job, generally speaking. Yes, it's stressful and time-consuming, but I like my job. How many Christians can say that? What do we say to those that don't?
2. Work consumes me. Even now I'm thinking about next week - that meeting, that report, that email, that student. How do we turn off?
3. I like the idea of the Sabbath rest, but what does that mean? So far today I've cooked breakfast, done 2 loads of washing, cleaned my room, played with my ferrets, read the paper, and done some finances. What is a Sabbath? And tomorrow's Sunday, which is full of church stuff?
4. I sometimes think that people don't get the idea of full-time work, when you're working according to the clock for hours on end. You don't want to stop, because you're being paid to work, so you work, and work, and work. There's no "ring a friend and have a chat" or "play a game on the internet" or "meet a friend for coffee". Everything is meetings, and email and constant work. Full-time office workers, and probably many others don't have much down time. We go, and go and go and go. I know a lot of my friends who are mothers complain that they don't stop work, but sometimes it feels like people don't understand the very constantness of full-time work. Day in, day out. Turn up, do the job. Get out of bed. Go to work. Go home. Get out of bed. Go to work. Go home.

Stopping now because last time I lost the whole comment.

Georgina - the best paragraphs I ever wrote got lost in a comment that disappeared to no where - mine would have changed the southern hemisphere. Genesis 2 to 3 sees work in Garden as God's happy companion and gardener become "painful toil" and earning our bread by "sweat of brow". Still noble now also harsh.(2:15, 3:17,19) I wonder if hunter gatherers ever ponder if they find their work satisfying, in a sense our professions are an extension and specialisation from H. gathering
Georgina is living Ecclesiastes with its somber view of work (Ecc2-4) yet she is blessed according to chapter 2 to find not only weeariness and drudgery in life but satidfaction in her toil.
I feel Jonathon's point about being left to make it up after all the parish cented chatter of us ministers is fairly clear - we just don't help people see where the Bible says work fits in - in both its nobility and its tediousness. Few years back had the pleasure of learning/preaching through Ecclesiastes with Andrew Katay and we was amazed how so many Christians found its view of life deeply affirming and encouraging because it made sense of life as it really is - now, living east of eden. Nothing wrong with how they so often felt ambivalence about work - its the way it simply is as we wait for Jesus to return and renew all things. We will probably have unsweeaty, unpainful restful work in heaven - but perhaps not. ianP

Despite spending many of our waking hours at work, in many jobs there are limited opportunities to share one's "personal life" with others outside of work mode.

Even our lunchtimes are filled with things to do e.g. lunch to buy, lunch at the desk, bills to pay, personal emails, Facebook, web surfing, news to read, shopping to do, some exercise to throw in, attending Christian meetings, meeting with prayer partners, doing Christian training courses, etc. (I'm thinking office desk jobs.)

Perhaps we should apportion some of our lunchtime to spend with our colleagues?

I have only just found the time / energy to read through this thread. I have been too busy working (and resting / attending to other day to day matters yesterday) ....

I feel that one of the core issues here is that the Bible doesn't seem to have much to say (directly, at least) about the type of work that a lot of us do - that is, work that involves acts of service for people outside our (either church or human) family.

On the first point, much of what the bible talks about as "work" involves making things (creation, Jesus the carpenter, Paul the tentmaker etc) rather than serving other people. This is very different from the professional services world in which many of us find ourselves. Perhaps we need to get a lot better at recognising that "service" is work just as much as production is work, with the same frustrations and joys.

On the second point, a large proportion of biblical ethical teaching occurs is about relatively "stable", or durable, social contexts - ie family and church relationships. Again, the transient and shifting nature of today's workforce (which a large scale turnover of people in a work place every 2-4 years, secondments, contracting / outsourcing, etc) is very different from this.

Recognising this reality, perhaps we need to get better at taking the work / task "situation" as our starting point for developing biblical workplace ethics, rather than using our "relational" ideals from other contexts as our starting point (and then bemoaning the difficulties of achieving this in the workplace).

In terms of relevant biblical principles, I agree with Ian P's references (at #96) to Eph 6, Col 3, 1 Tim 6 and Tit 2, but as a starting point for developing a "situational' Christian ethic for the workplace I would add the various examples of acts of service in the final chapter of 1 Corinthians, of Phillipians, and of Colossians, as well as Romans 15:1-3. One summary of these passages might be that "use your strength to strengthen others, (however you can in the particular situation) and do so graciously and generously".

Applying these passages in our day to day workplaces would not be an act of futility, but an act of witness - ie "you matter enough to God that I am willing to serve you (at least right here and now) as if I was serving my Lord".

And the death of Jesus for us drives us to strive for a different rest ….

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4

Di

To Hendry - yes loudly to your point about scheduling time in lunch to just hang with work-colleagues - especially if we hope God may even use us to share something of our lives and therefore of Jesus. To allow lunch to be all my stuff or chruch stuff wll ensure nothing I widh to share about Jesus will be heard.
To David - the instructions to slaves is probably to those in types of service industries and whatever we do we do it in love. That will cause us to shine as lights.
ian P

To Luke (I preface this by saying these are my thoughts and wishes alone and do not reflect worker/employers everywhere in Syd)
I want it all! I want more application, more insight, more love, less cluelessness.
Take some time as I did to listen to some Sydney sermons online and also a year of listening to the sermons at church. And I am confident you will find the following.
A percentage of 80% exegisis 20% application (and I am being kind here more like 90/ 10)
I ve listened to sermons that are esoteric academia with no real regard for the listener in that they tilt at windmills and answer questions I'm not asking. (sacrilege! I hear you say we let the bible set the agenda! Yeah but the preachers/ministers choose the passages?!)
Most of the application is church centric (unless its about families)
That is, it reflects what the people in a church should look/sound/behave like.
But I need to know how to manage, with grace, those things/money/education/power/family/workfriends/neighbors/ that, being redeemed, God has entrusted me with, outside church.
Otherwise I wind up thinking that God is only interested in the church part of my life because that's the meta narative. (and I wind up with a church culture that does not reflect the society it is seeking to be vital in.) And a situation where I am forced to choose.
But I love that people are talking and concerned about it.
You want an indication that I/we are compartmentalised? Look at what Syd evangchristians spend from their "real lives" on church. Was it $12 or $14 a week?

Attention all of us preachers - please let us listen to our brother Jonathan!!
80% exegeisis. That is overwhelmingly playing with what does the text mean as if the Bible is an inherently difficult book to understand. I know Peter makes a comment about Paul's letters having "some things" that are hard to understand but protestants used to believe as that revolutionary man DB Knox used to teach that the Bible is "perspicuos" (an unclear way to say it is clear). Books like Romans are written to ordinary people (Jews and Gentiles) and presumabley Paul wrote like like you would write a letter, to be understood on the first read through. Is there any clue in Rmoans that it is not? Yet we go as if its really hard to get it right - so far from the great Tyndale and his view that the plough boy should know Romans. Ah only after he has read a 1000 pages of Moo (which is a very fine book - still strangely large)
We turn great slabs of very practical Bible into theoretical idea games.
A while ago I stumbled onto the fact that so many of the great theological passages on Christ and the atonement are written entirley for obvious practical life-style purposes - look at the great passage on Christ in Phil 2 and in Peter the great passages on the atonement (and they are great) are in writeen to get us to live well (1Pet2). The "theology" is to get us to live humbly and suffer trustingly.
Hard to avoid that poor old Syd is actually weak where we think we are strong - better than some,

I agree with you Jonathan that the bible (or rather God) sets the agenda, however whilst some parts of it (such as those pointed out by Ian) are steeped in practical application, many others (eg most of the Old Testament) simply do not (in the sense that I think you are talking about). Much of Scripture points to Jesus, much of it reveals the character of God, etc - I suppose you could say that often the application lies within the exegesis of the text. I think we run the risk of missing the point of passages like Isaiah 53 if we go searching for practical application in every instance. Not that those passages have no application! For example, take Paul in Thessalonica and Berea in Acts 17, reasoning with them "from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead..." I'll bet an arm and a leg he went to Isaiah 53 on those occasions.

Good stuff Jon!

Dear Nick - You are right to gentley correct my simplification. There are some passages esp in OT that may well not be self evidently relevant to Ostwalia in C21.
You mention Is53 one of my all time favourite passages. MY guess would be Jonathan would not be asking for application re how should act at work next week but some deep clear realistic application to struggles of life. The application would presumabley be about the glorious victory of Jesus over Jon and others' sin that would send him to home and work with unspeakable joy in his heart that transforms all of life. It would help the guilt ridden learn to laugh at their sin knowing that the Servants suffering has "superabounded" over all his sin. It would speak of the faithfulness of God in such clear prophecy 600 years before the Beloved turned up on earth and the great love of Him who gladly chooses to be wounded for our sin so we can be fully justified.
But it would not be mostly or primarily a dissection of the passage with all sorts of interesting but unnecessary intriguing titbits about the passage. It would not spend 90% in C6th BC and a tiny bit in C21st. Is53 is so obvioulsy about Jesus (see Phillip in Acts) it should be like preaching from the gospels or an epistle.
Is53 could sadly still be dealt with as if the whole passage is NOT about Jesus, us and Jonathan. From intro to end it should be preached as answering real existential felt issues of us. But we have moved topics - sorry - Ian

As this thread winds to its end, I must confess to doing what Chappo used to urge preachers to do and I have listened to MYSELF preaching as displayed on Sydneyanglicans. In my "application" for Mark 10 at around 30 minutes (or more exactly 34th minute) plus I apply greateness to congregation to workers first and then to church life etc. Would be interested to know - Honestly - whether that sort of application is helpful or perhaps unhelpful.
A bit sorry to be, or perhaps seeming to be egotistical. Just wondering.
ian P