AUDIO

by Archbishop Peter Jensen
Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
Carson vs Piper
Michael Jensen
August 8th, 2011

Have a look at this video excerpt from the Gospel Coalition:

It is a friendly but important disagreement. On the one hand, you have the great preacher John Piper insisting that the text of Scripture itself is sufficient in and of itself to convey God’s truth. As a result, he says, he would prefer a preacher to become expert in the text itself and not in the historical background to the text.

Don Carson, the scholar and theologian, begs to differ. As Carson sees it, the historical background to the Bible is indispensable for its right interpretation. In fact, without knowledge of the historical context, says Carson, it is likely that a preacher will misinterpret the text entirely, however pious his motives and prayerful his study.

I have a lot of sympathy with Piper in this exchange. The quest for the historical background to the Old and New Testaments has not always provided a good deal of enlightenment. What happens so often is that a scholarly work proclaims itself to be THE new lens by which the Bible must be interpreted; and everyone jumps on board the bandwagon. Yet it only takes a generation for the wheels to fall off the bandwagon, and every quietly forgets that old theory.

Furthermore, it is often the case that historians seem to forget how limited and incomplete the data they are dealing with is. They cannot possibly make the kind of totalising claims about life in the first century that we seem to hear so often.

Which leads us to an important theological conviction about Scripture: that it speaks to us across time and space because it is God’s vehicle for communicating with human beings in every age. It addresses 21st century men and women because, however different they are from 1st century people, they share in common a spiritual dilemma. And the same gospel comes to us now as it did then.

As God’s word, Scripture cannot and does not rest on an authority outside of itself. Scripture must interpret scripture, as the Reformers said. So Piper is making an important theological point here.

But, as Carson rightly points out, he is drawing a false dichotomy. We don’t have to choose one or other: we need both deep knowledge of Scripture itself AND a knowledge of history to interpret Scripture well. We can heed the dangers of allowing Scripture to disappear completely into this or that reading of historical background to the degree that it becomes utterly inaccessible to the ordinary person. But we must also recognise that Scripture is a product of human perspiration as well as divine inspiration. Scripture comes from a time and a place; and so it makes perfect sense that knowing about that time and place will illuminate our reading of Scripture.

And this is equally an important theological principle: that Scripture is a historical book means that it must be embedded in history. It is not a collection of abstract teachings or principles. It relates to real events in the real world; and it emerges from those events. It tells us a great deal about the kind of message it conveys that this is so.

And so, for preachers and for ordinary Bible readers, I think Carson’s is the wiser counsel here. Spend the bulk of your time in study of the text of Scripture. But an hour or two investigating the historical context of, say, 1st century Ephesus, or 1st century Palestine will enrich your reading of the text and save you from error - because this recognises the kind of book Scripture actually is.

 

Michael Jensen    08 August 2011 6:07pm
A couple of extra points:

a) I love how this is a model of passionate yet respectful and even chummy disagreement.

b) h/t to blogger Michael Bird for the video in the first place.

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Martin (Enkidu) Shields    08 August 2011 9:39pm
Piper's position is only tenable when you overlook the fact that we read a translation of the Bible (IIRC Carson mentions this), and that's because understanding the language of the original texts itself requires some knowledge of the historical, cultural, and social settings in which those languages were used!

So while there are many abuses of appeals to historical background, it remains indispensable and instead of rejecting it we should use it, albeit with care and good sense.

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Michael Jensen    08 August 2011 9:46pm
Yes, the abuse doesn't condemn the use.

I think the Piper view, which I have heard elsewhere, is a misunderstanding of the Reformation principle 'let Scripture interpret Scripture'. That slogan was aimed at a view which suggested that an authorised curia was the sole right interpreter of the text. Of course, the Reformers adopted the best insights from historical study of the text in their day.

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Philip Griffin    08 August 2011 11:06pm
Some of the issues that need to be teased out in this important discussion include: the difference between illumination and interpretation of the text, and what controls are placed on the way the historical background is used to place an interpretation on a text.

A working example or two would also be very useful. A text like Philippians 1:27 would be a good candidate. To what extent should 'live as citizens of' be understood in the light of the fact that Philippi had special status within the Roman empire? I heard a talk not that long ago that, in my view, cited this historical background and then read into the text a problem of pride on the part of the Philippians.

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Kevin Russell    09 August 2011 2:04am
Thank you Michael. I think we should be very careful here and hold both views in a kind of creative tension. As you have noted, the bible speaks across time and space to many different generations and cultures. Therefore the main point is that it is the Bible itself that contains all things necessary for salvation (Articles 6&7) and not a detailed knowledge of history. One the one hand, I should be able to discern the truth of the gospel without knowing much about history, but knowing a bit of history certainly helps. [EG Philip’s example of Philippians 1:27 where the text applies to any cultural background, and knowledge of the Roman Colony is not necessary to understand the main point of the verse – but knowing the history can help illuminate the text.]

It seems to me that none of us are infallible. Like it or not we all have culture shaped lenses which we use to interpret God’s word. So there is a space for the community of Christians to help us understand the Word of God, so long as that community of Christians is under the Word of God - and that community of Christians has to be bigger than the local church or denomination.

In short – we need each other, and I dare suggest John Piper and Don Carson need each other.

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Dianne Howard    09 August 2011 2:19am
Hi Michael,

If I agree with your concluding statement:

'But an hour or two investigating the historical context of, say, 1st century Ephesus, or 1st century Palestine will enrich your reading of the text and save you from error - because this recognises the kind of book Scripture actually is’,

then that leaves me with a question: what historical information, other than that which can be gained from the Bible itself, does a reader need in order to avoid doctrinal error? Can you give some examples?

cheers Di

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Robert James Elliott    09 August 2011 6:12am
It again strikes me as a weakness of modern Anglicanism that, here at Sydney Anglicans, we look to a reformed Baptist like John Piper and a Baptist like Don Carson for guidance, not a fellow Anglican?

Robert

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Philip Griffin    09 August 2011 6:24am
Actually Robert, Sydney Anglicans engage with people from both an Anglican and non-Anglican background, knowing that we can teach and learn from one another, for we are united in Christ. That's something for which we can give thanks to God.

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Robert James Elliott    09 August 2011 6:30am
So as I am an Anglo-Catholic, do I get a conference on Pusey and Newman?

Why not if half the diocese gets its share of Baptists?

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Michael Jensen    09 August 2011 7:05am
@I wouldn't take it so seriously Robert - the denomonational background of these guys is irrelevant in this instance.

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Robert Denham    09 August 2011 10:01am
Di,
one quick example would be how do we understand the lukewarm passage in Revelation 3 with regard to Laodicea. There are many different ways of understanding the difference between hot, cold & lukewarm, & what they mean for Christians. Yet a historical & geographical study of the area will show that across the Lycus Valley a few kms away from Laodicea was a popular hot thermal springs town called Hierapolis. Then up river a few kms was Colossae at the base of a snow capped mountain, & Colossae had refreshingly cold water supply. Yet Laodicea was on the road in a dry part of the valley & needed it's water piped in. Drinking water in Laodicea was lukewarm & salty.
When this is understood, illuminating the text, then we can avoid trying to postulate about what lukewarm may mean as compared to hot or cold. Instead we see that their ungodliness was as repugnant as thier drinking water. Along with that, Laodicea was very rich & after an earthquake flattened it, the locals paid to have it rebuilt without help from Rome. Self-contented, rich, flabby Christians were as appealing to Jesus as drinking a cup of their salty luke-warm water.
It is possible to draw the same conclusions by exegeting the text, but knowing the history & geography of the towns involved makes it easier & clearer, & a little bit more relevant because the scriptures speak to their situation much more directly, & thus also to us.

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Ernest Burgess    09 August 2011 11:18am
Di, another one is John 14.2 "In my father's house there are many rooms if it were not so I would have told you I am going there to prepare a place for you" N T Wright argues in his book "Surprised by Hope" the following (page162) "Here we need to visit a point we made earlier, What does Jesus mean when he declares that there are"many dwellings places in His fathers house?4 This has regularly been taken, not least when used in the context of bereavement, to mean that the dead (or at least dead Christians) will simply go to "heaven" permanently, rather than being raised again subsequently to new bodily life. But the word for "dwelling -places" here ,monai is regularly used in ancient Greek not for a final resting place but for a temporary halt on a journey that will take you somewhere else in the long run" If Wright is right ( and he seems to be one of the modern gurus) should we continue to use the John 14 passage in our funeral services?

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Craig Bennett    09 August 2011 2:29pm
I think one of the dangers of not allowing for cultural historical knowledge of the text is that it leads to extreme literal readings of the text...take the militant young earth creationists as one example.

The 2nd benefit I see in allowing for a cultural historical knowledge is in acknowledging that the text is not in a vacuum and therefore we can learn to apply it correctly within the framework of our own cultural setting.

3rdly I see Carson and Piper coming from a vastly different cultural areas of life and ministry. Carson being Canadian and Piper American... both face different battles in regards to the cultural thought towards faith and theology, which I"m sure plays a major part of how they equip and release others into ministry.

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Tom Barrett    10 August 2011 2:37am
Ernest - Thanks for the Wright quote - it answers an anxiety I have had about John 14. But surely in a funeral service (which in prayer book form has plenty to say about the resurrection) the news that there are many rooms in Jesus's father's roadside motel is still good news?!

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 4:18am
In all fairness to Piper and Carson (and Keller), there is a continuing video where the conversation is completed.
All agree that (as John Piper put it)- we must have ‘utter utter devotion to the particularities of all of the Bible’. Carson and Keller said amen to this!

cont...

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 4:19am
I would not agree that any of these extras have made the meaning clearer or more relevant.

eg lukewarmness is very clear from the text of Revelation 3: - lukewarmness is when people say ‘I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked’. Such people will be vomited from God’s mouth. (Just as we see in OT).

eg: in John 14 (v2, 23) the word “rooms/home’ (Greek: mone) is only used twice in the Bible and both in this chapter. The whole point was to offer comfort and assurance because Jesus was leaving his disciples. It is about assuring his followers that they would have a permanent future dwelling with God. Jesus is returning to take them to this dwelling (where God is) and (v23) as he dwells with us now by His word, His Spirit.

cont...

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 4:20am
Context gives meaning. I’m reading Isaiah at the moment and I’m blown away by how much it gives meaning to the NT terminology – gospel, evangelism, faith, sin, judgement, hell, our hope, God dwelling with people, glory of God....it’s all in Isaiah!

Sadly people often, by default, go to ‘extra historical/cultural sources’ rather than going to the context of the verses, including the other testament. It is the historical scriptures that are our authority, for they are the very words of God to his creation. We must be very careful not to elevate uninspired historical record or the wisdom of man as the authority.

The Old is the inspired ‘commentary’ for the New. The New is the inspired ‘commentary’ for the Old. In the end it is all one text. Without this approach we frequently get shallow understanding, distortion, errors.

I suggest a huge issue, faced by preacher and reader alike, is knowing the Bible well enough so that it is rightly and humbly understand.

Di

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Michael Jensen    10 August 2011 4:27am
Yes, Di, context gives meaning... but the context INCLUDES the historical background of the text, because the text of Scripture comes from and relates to history. It isn't an either/or.

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Martin (Enkidu) Shields    10 August 2011 4:48am
Dianne, the big problem is that the issue raised here is largely hidden from readers of English Bibles because they are reading a translation. Take, for example, the passage raised above by Phillip, Phil 1:27. The word Phillip translates with "live as citizens of" (πολιτεύομαι) is not so translated by any modern English version that I could find, nor even by the venerable KJV. This illustrates my point: even when translating the individual words, translators need to be aware of the historical, cultural, and social context of the text. When looking at πολιτεύομαι they need to ask what it meant to the original author and audience, what nuances it incorporated, what special meanings it might include in a specific literary context, how it was used in other literature, what connotations were raised in the minds of the original audience. And this applies not only to the odd word here and there, but to a great many terms throughout the Bible!

Now in many instances much of this can be determined through a careful analysis of the context, yet other times the immediate textual context is insufficient. What is "baptism for the dead" (1Cor 15:29)? What is a "firmament"?

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Martin (Enkidu) Shields    10 August 2011 4:50am
(continued:)

Once this has been investigated, translators then need to consider how the meaning can be replicated in the minds of modern readers. What we then end up with is an English Bible, readily accessible to many, which incorporates historical information used by the translators which was acquired outside of the immediate text itself. Readers often forget all this has gone on.

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 6:45am
Hi Martin
I understand with languages we are dealing with normal language convention (source language to target language) but my concern is not related to translation as such but rather what history (other than determining the meaning of words) has to be known to understand the intention of scripture.

I can see that ‘πολιτεύομαι’ is from the word group to do with city/citizens so that’s why I’m looking forward to a Sydney translation!!

However, how unreliable do you think are commonly used translations in regard to Christian truth?

Di

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 6:51am
Michael,

What extra history do I need to understand scripture? Examples would really help here.

The more I read the Bible the more I think we don’t need any extra history (socio/cultural) to understand and respond in faith and repentance.

One understands the gospel from scripture, one understands scripture from the gospel.

I'm saying that the historical background necessary to understand the Bible is in the Bible, right from the beginning to the end.

Di

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Craig Bennett    10 August 2011 7:45am
Dianne...without any historical knowledge...we are locked into a literal understanding of the Genesis account of creation. We will have no understanding that the Penteteuach was edited within the exilic / postexilic time frame and therefore lose that perspective of why and what was happening.

We will lose the sense of the whole when reading the 12 minor prophets, which were contained and edited as one book to be read as a whole scroll and not just individual books. Without an understanding of the historical back ground..one is forced to take Job as an isolated book...however by using historical research its shown that Job and Ecclesiastes have a lot in common.

And without historical research our Biblical language experts could not bring about an accurate translation of the ancient texts.

Simply put.. the Bible is an ancient text, that is written within the context of an ancient culture, and is not an isolated text outside of those cultures.

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Martin (Enkidu) Shields    10 August 2011 8:02am
Hi Dianne,

my concern is not related to translation as such but rather what history (other than determining the meaning of words) has to be known to understand the intention of scripture.


The problem is that in conceding that history (within which I'd include social and cultural considerations) is necessary for understanding the meaning of words you've drawn an arbitrary line between where you allow history and where you disallow it. Why permit appeals to historical context when seeking to understand words but disallow it if you're trying to understand some larger portion of the text?

However, how unreliable do you think are commonly used translations in regard to Christian truth?


I think almost all modern translations are very reliable, but largely because they do take historical context into consideration!

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 8:24am
Craig,

I didn’t say we don’t have historical knowledge, nor do I think we cannot learn historical knowledge, I just said that to understand the intention of the bible we don’t need more history than what is contained within its pages.

I understand Genesis ‘literally’ (considering genre), as I do all the bible - God by his word created a good world and good people, and humanity disobeyed his word.

I acknowledged that words had historical meaning and therefore minor words may need research from other language sources. We have the LXX (Greek translation of OT) which the NT quotes, so we have the Hebrew and Greek to determine meaning of NT words.

The Bible books cover years and years of culture, but I argued that what we need to know about culture or history is given sufficiently in scripture to understand the gospel and its implications. What knowledge of God do you think is unclear?

Di

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Dianne Howard    10 August 2011 8:54am
Thanks for your response Martin.

I'm arguing that, as one listens to the word of God in the historical Bible, knowledge of other history is not essential in order to avoid error regarding the knowledge of God.

Di

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Robert Denham    10 August 2011 12:58pm
On Jn 14:2-3, one other aspect we often miss is that when a bridegroom prepared to marry, he would add a room to his father's house, & when it was prepared, then he would go to collect his bride. "In my Father's house are many rooms, if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? & if I go & prepare a place for you, I will come again & will take you to myself, that where I am you may also be."
From history & culture we find that this is not just reassurance of our eternity with him, but a marriage proposal of the messiah with his bride.
Knowing the culture & history of that time does not prevent understanding the passage, but it may give an extra dimension & colour that otherwise may be missed.

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Craig Bennett    10 August 2011 1:20pm
I am wondering if the true meaning of Jesus words about adding rooms or many rooms is not so much about the future paradise nor is it about the heavenly realms...rather Jesus is referring to the earthly temple, and saying I am going to make many rooms in the temple of God.

I believe we should take note in that Jesus often refers to the Temple as being his fathers house...and therefore within the context of the Gospel message, Jesus is saying I am going to make rooms for all nations to come to me... this thought is further more supported by Peter being sent to Cornelius and Paul being the apostle to the Gentiles.

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Michael Jensen    10 August 2011 8:26pm
@Di said:
"I'm arguing that, as one listens to the word of God in the historical Bible, knowledge of other history is not essential in order to avoid error regarding the knowledge of God"

That's kinda the Piper false dichotomy. Yes, Scripture is effective as God's word in all kinds of conditions and to all kinds of people, who may or may not know elements of historical background etc. But... let me try an analogy: a bad translation may convey the gospel and people may become Christians through a bad translation of Scripture. But that is no excuse for bad translation!

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Dianne Howard    11 August 2011 1:32am
Michael,

The big issue is how to rightly understand (and therefore respond to) the revelation of God.

So many people rely on ‘devotional’ material, the opinion of others, cultural background stories or the constant listening to sermons because they don’t really believe they can read and understand the Bible as it is....simply trusting others to always be getting it right, unlike the Bereans.

Acts 17: Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

I’m reading Isaiah at the moment and I’m not seeking to deny its historical context as I read. And I don’t want a poor second in my understanding. What do I need to know (history/culture), outside the Bible, to understand what God is revealing in the book of Isaiah? (assuming a reliable translation)

Di

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Kevin Russell    11 August 2011 4:05am
This has been an interesting comment trail – but I find it disturbing. I have had to re-read what Michael is saying but would add that there is a real danger of reading the Bible as an historical/intellectual book as opposed to God’s word.

The Bible is accessible by ordinary people – who do not necessarily have theological or history degrees (or indeed any degree). For the most part, its main tenants can be understood. The Holy Spirit has something to do with this! Extra material can be helpful – including knowledge of ancient history but a detailed knowledge is not necessary to get the main point.

It is important that Scripture stands in its own right – without a lens that may colour our understanding – which is why we have a section of our services where the bible is read separate to the sermon (at least that is the logic of the Anglican Prayer Books). We also act as if this is true by giving out portions of Scripture (EG Mark’s gospel in a Magazine Format, The Essential Jesus [Luke] etc, etc)

I notice in Michael’s post that understanding the history is the minor role; the bulk of the time should be spent in the actual Bible. My recent experience of Bible Study groups however, is a tendency to want to know about the texts – historical, grammatical context etc, rather than asking the basic and personally more vulnerable questions such as ‘What is God telling me here?’

(To Be Continued)

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Kevin Russell    11 August 2011 4:06am
(Continuing)

Whatever the intent of this post, and whatever our understanding of the Bible’s historical setting, we all can have confidence in the Bible as God’s word to us and especially that God will speak to us through his word.

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Michael Jensen    11 August 2011 4:17am
That's all true. But it is, I remind you, a false dichotomy. And the fact that, yes, God speaks through the Word, is not an excuse for intellectual laziness when it comes to the text. The historical and grammatical questions are not seperable from the personal questions: you won't know what the personal question is unless you work at the text. Or: you will be less likely to get it completely wrong if you treat the text as a book that came from a particular time and place.

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Kevin Russell    11 August 2011 4:34am
Yes - I think that false dichotomy was my point at #5 - at least that was what I was getting at. And yes there is no excuse for intellectual laziness, but my concern is the tendency in some circles to be so concerned with the historical and grammatical questions at the expense of the personal questions. My other concern is what might be labelled the professionalisation of Bible Reading. More focus on the preacher/teacher because ordinary people have lost confidence in their ability to read the Bible.

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Dianne Howard    11 August 2011 9:01am
I think lay people lose confidence in the ‘plain’ reading of the bible when the teachers evidence that they have lost confidence. Jesus taught in such a way that anyone listening could know they could search the scriptures and see it for themselves. So too the apostles.

Which brings us back to the importance of getting hermeneutics (the process of interpretation) right.

Michael you wrote, ‘We need both deep knowledge of Scripture itself AND a knowledge of history to interpret Scripture well’.

According to Don Carson this ‘history’ is external to the Bible. He said even though you may be soaked in scripture you will make a lot of needless mistakes.

Is this a right conclusion? How did Jesus and the apostles ‘interpret’ the scriptures?

Di

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Michael Jensen    11 August 2011 9:05am
But Di - knowledge of Greek and Hebrew grammar is 'external to the Bible'. Did Jesus and the apostles make use of it to interpret the Scriptures? Yes. You'll even find them using non-Scriptural works like 1 Enoch to interpret salvation-history. Is this a problem? No.

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Dianne Howard    12 August 2011 2:55am
Language conventions exist because they are part of the way God created us. The reason God can speak to us is because of God given language ability. It’s a universality. Hence different language groups can talk via a translator. We can go to a lost tribe and translate the Bible. At this point the Bible is like any other document in history.

However it is invalid to argue that since we use grammar to understand the Bible and since grammar is external (or partly external) to the Bible then we also must use external history/culture in addition to the inspired history of the Bible to understand what God is saying in the Bible so that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith and that being rooted and grounded in love, we may have strength to comprehend with all believers what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that we may be filled with all the fullness of God.

cont...

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Dianne Howard    12 August 2011 2:55am
Re the infamous veil! The text (1 Cor 11) is clear in its intention – which is, don’t blur gender differences in the church. We don’t need any more info than what is in the Bible to understand.

The other example raised in the video – Jesus reclining at table. Does it matter if the reader knows no more than what is written in the text regarding ‘reclining’? For depth of understanding one only needs to appreciate the book of John and the OT prophecies concerning Jesus. Yes one could add ‘colour’ to the story, but any ‘colour’ can be (but not necessarily) a distraction from the significance of the text especially given its theological significance. If the preacher makes ‘colour’ seem important for meaning then the listener loses confidence in their ability to understand the Bible as the ‘colour’ becomes linked to theological understanding.

If Jesus did quote Enoch then Jesus would be doing it because in this case what Enoch said is true. It’s quite another thing for us to read Enoch and try and work out what is a true and what is a false. Michael, where did Jesus use Enoch and in what way?

cont...

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Dianne Howard    12 August 2011 2:57am
What is important is what I might call the ‘history- relationships’ within the bible. That is, the historical position of the texts to one another. This is vital. eg covenant before exodus, exodus before exile, exile before cross, and cross before judgement day..... Historical position of text is important in relation to eschatology (doctrine of final things). This comes from a knowledge of the scriptures. Of course a good Bible dictionary helps the reader to see what is already on display in the Bible text. A good commentary will keep informing the reader how the rest of the scriptures contribute to the understanding of a particular text.

The history-relationships have enormous implications for understanding. For example the coming of Christ influences how we understand Law, Proverbs, Psalms, eschatological passages.

However, as one listens to the word of God in the historical Bible, knowledge of other history/culture is not essential in order to avoid error regarding the knowledge of God. Indeed this is because of the nature of revelation.

A thoroughly wise understanding of God and his salvation is obtained from humbly reading the ‘Scripture Alone’.

Heresy or ‘needless errors’ occur when we do not live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Di

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Craig Bennett    12 August 2011 3:04am
I think there is a nuance that is missed between the discussions of Di and others...What I think Di is saying is that we can come to know the salvation of Christ through a general reading of the Bible, without having to have a prior understanding of the historical context.

Within this framework I whole heartedly agree. However...someone can become and remain a Christian without ever having read the Bible and have an ongoing relationship with the God of the Bible.

However I don't think that situation is the norm nor do I think it could be richly sustained. Therefore one of the benefits of knowing the historical context is that it does help us to grow within our knowledge and relationship with Christ and others.

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Kevin Russell    12 August 2011 3:12am
I wouldn't want to diminish the importance of the various strands of theology - I believe them to be essential in the body of Christ and yes, there is a theological framework to the construct of the Bible. It is, for example, hard to understand the Book of Amos without that external history. Hence at #5 I suggested that we need both the Piper & Carsons in a creative tension.

I still hold that the Bible primarily is to be read as God's word - by ordinary Christians and we will all get the main point. And this is a vital activity for Christian life.

On this hyperlink is a wonderful example of reading Mark's gospel as a stand alone activity in a pastoral and evangelistic setting.

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Dianne Howard    12 August 2011 5:07am
Hi Kevin,

My following question gets to the heart of what I am saying regarding history/culture:

What extra historical/cultural information, external to the history recorded in the Bible, does one need in order to understand the salvation history recorded in the book of Amos, to understand what God is saying to us today?

Di

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Michael Jensen    12 August 2011 7:12am
Lots.

Where was Tekoa?

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Kevin Russell    12 August 2011 8:02am
Hi Di,

I cited ‘Amos’, because it can be a hard book to understand, without some knowledge of the history. That history, incidentally, is recorded in the Old Testament, so it is internal to the Bible. But it certainly helps to have someone explain it to you! Nevertheless, you could read ‘Amos’ as a stand alone, and get the vibe that God wants you to repent without the knowledge of the history. But it is good to know what is meant by ‘Come to Bethel – and transgress’ (Amos 4:4)

In the New Testament the Ethiopian Eunuch needed someone to explain the scriptures to him (Acts 8:26-40). This brings me to the nature of this discussion – it’s a ‘lean to’ discussion rather that a dogmatic debate. We actually need each other to help us understand the Bible. But, at the same time, God uses his word, via the Holy Spirit, to speak to us, to convict us, etc.

I lean towards the Piper view, partly out of my understanding of Scripture (2 Tim 3:15-17) and partly out of experience, that is to say, I see 2 Tim 3:15-17 happening in people’s lives. Check out this story.

When we read the Bible, we build up a theology, which guides us in how we understand the Bible. John 3:16 provides the simplest starting point. But we must be prepared to modify our framework of understanding, if the text of the Bible is inconsistent with our understanding.

(To be continued)

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Kevin Russell    12 August 2011 8:04am
(Continuing)

Hence those of us who are preacher, teachers and missionaries need our professional theologians to keep us on track. They do us a great service. On the other hand, those who are theologians need the grass roots practitioners to keep them grounded in reality, to keep them gospel practiced focussed etc. So, we need each other.

So, while Michael and I appear to be leaning in different directions, we need each other, we need this kind of discussion, and we need to encourage each other in gospel ministry.

In short, ordinary Christians can read their Bibles, in English, with confidence. God will bring you to maturity in Christ through them.

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Frank Savage    12 August 2011 8:35am
My Bible software tells me there are references to the place called Tekoa in the OT

2 Chron 11:6 mentions Tekoa among the fortified cities in Judah and Benjamin.

But I doubt this is necessary "to understand the salvation history recorded in the book of Amos, to understand what God is saying to us today" as Diane says.

Uses of the Old Testament in the New Testament seem to be limited to major themes and persons. Readily understandable to anyone who knows the OT fairly well, and not needing specialist historical knowledge from outside the OT itself.

And Craig seems to be relying on the discredited Documentary Hypothesis of an late Exilic origin of the Creation account in Genesis 1. Supposedly at least 1500 years after the history recorded in the whole of Genesis. Not helpful for understanding salvation history, or what God is saying to us today. ??

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Michael Jensen    12 August 2011 9:15am
@Kevin - the point you are putting is the point Carson (and I) are putting, not Piper. It isn't an either/or! That's Piper's mistake in this.

In addition: Di has taken this to extremes. The claim is not that you can't understand salvation-history without some knowledge of the historical background. Rather, it is that knowledge of the historical background will save you from error in interpreting the text and clarify things that are obscure.

People keep falling for Piper's false dichotomy here.

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Dianne Howard    12 August 2011 10:55am
Michael,

I’m only extreme if I’m wrong aren't I? :)

What aspect of the gospel/salvation is unclear within the bible that must have external material to correct misunderstanding?

How is your view ('knowledge of the historical background will save you from error in interpreting the text') consistent with an inspired, infallible text?

Di

#49 of 0 top
Kevin Russell    13 August 2011 12:47am
Good Morning Michael & Di.
It is hard to be unemotive about this discussion. Michael, I think some comments have come across as a little unkind - kind style in the academic world but this is not the academic world. EG the Tekoa comment. Di appears extreme becasue of the nature of this discussion - the more you lock in, the more she has to to explore the point.
The last three paragraphs of the post are pivitol and the cause of the discussion here.
Third last paragraph - Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!!!!!
Second last paragraph - operative sentence - the subject of the discussion - as per can we trust our reading of scripture for daily living. We can't know the history adequately enough but we can be confident of the trustworthyness of the Bible for the drama/plan of salvation and God's will for our lives.

There are other questions raised in this discussion which are worthy of seperate posts - too complex for this one - such as
a. The nature of scripture. (infallible/trustworthy for what purpose?)
b. The nature of church in relation to scripture.
c. The role of the Holy Spirit in our reading of scripture.
I am sure that there are other questions as well.

It is not possible, or necessary for ordinary christians to need a detailed understanding of history to understand scripture - we can be confident as we read the scriptures for ourselves. Nevertheless there is a need for theologians to keep at this task and bring us new insights (which we are perfectly at liberty to test).

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Michael Jensen    13 August 2011 1:11am
..which I repeat is EXACTLY what Carson was saying and NOT what Piper was saying...

I don't think I came accross as unkind, nor was I being. And I don't sense any irritation from Di.

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Dianne Howard    13 August 2011 6:50am
No problems from my end. The process of debate helps me to think through things. I’m not debating in the sense to win but to think about what is true.

In this discussion I’m writing about how I actually seek to read the Bible, so am passionate, but open to correction IF I’m convinced!

How we ‘interpret’ the Bible is an extremely important matter to consider. However, I’m not really wanting to line up with either Don Carson or John Piper on this matter as I’ve not read their books or listened to them preach to any extent (one sermon of each which I can’t remember) – I’d only be judging them on a few short excerpts.

Before Michael had put his article up I had recently listened to a series of online lectures on Isaiah. Regard for the historical nature of the book was given - important differences such as what period of history Isaiah was addressing in relation to exile, who Isaiah was speaking to and about, and what parts were historical and what were eschatological....

cont...

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Dianne Howard    13 August 2011 6:51am
The lectures I found to be very helpful – but essentially it was an explanation of the history that was contained within scripture (other parts of Isaiah, Kings, Ezra). A timeline was used to give the Biblical historical setting and a map was referred to (external history!!, helpful but not essential). Along with this was an appreciation of the dynamic elements of the book – no surprises here - God’s word, sin, judgement, remnant, outcome for faithful, response, hope, God’s glory.

Observations were made concerning such things as historical and eschatological material, reading of prophecy, Christology, and debate that surrounds the book and more. The choice for the initial readers - to trust, rely on God and live in the light of the final glory or put your hope in alliances with the nations was explored in the light of each historical crisis.

As a result of these lectures I’m equipped by information from the Bible itself to read Isaiah for understanding. And I’m now finding it a mind blowing experience in the reading of it. Isaiah gives such robust meaning to words and ideas in the NT eg gospel, evangelism, faith, repentance, suffering servant, salvation.... so we ought to know the book well and we can, with what is given in the word of God.

cont...

#53 of 0 top
Dianne Howard    13 August 2011 6:52am
What external extra do I need to ‘interpret’ the book in the light of the gospel? What essential is there that I don’t have in the Bible text in order to understand its message? Only that the Spirit will strengthen me to submit to His Word and give me understanding that leads to salvation.

The sad thing is that one may be able to explain every historical detail and not have the joy of salvation.

Just to assure you I’m not a total ‘luddite’ in relation to ‘extra information’ I’m going off to have a cuppa and read an interesting article I found on the book case – “Interpreting the Bible’ by Broughton Knox :)!!

Di

#54 of 0 top
Michael Jensen    14 August 2011 7:27am
Granted, the Spirit is our only teacher, ultimately. But this isn't an excuse for ignoring the work of undertanding the Scripture as it is - a book that comes from a time and place different to our own. When the Reformers said it was a self-interpreting book, they didn't mean that you needed no background information to interpret it.

Take the word 'paidagogos' in Gal 3:24 for example. We just can't grasp the meaning of this word without knowing some Greco-roman history. Does it mean we can't 'get' the gospel? No. But knowing the historical background shines a great light on the text AND saves us from potential error. Examples like this abound.

#55 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    15 August 2011 12:56am
Michael @ #54,
Take the word 'paidagogos' in Gal 3:24 for example. We just can't grasp the meaning of this word without knowing some Greco-roman history. Does it mean we can't 'get' the gospel? No. But knowing the historical background shines a great light on the text AND saves us from potential error. Examples like this abound.

That word "error" is freighted with a sense of dire consequence for most evangelicals. "Error" is what heretics, apostates, and other religions routinely trade in. So when you hint that "error" may be the consequence of misunderstanding what a paidogogos was, and that "examples like this abound", there's a somewhat ominous undertone. The biblical text - supposedly so perspicuous - becomes something of a semantic minefield; it abounds in nuances that, like paidogogos, are observable only to the historically recondite textual specialist. Any one of these nuances could hatch "error", with all its dire potential; hints of the lip of some slippery slope to heresy.

One effect of such dark hinting is to heighten the authority of specialist brokers of the biblical texts, eg. Moore college lecturers, Don Carson. Without their expertise, the ordinary "Bible-believing" punter is left dangerously bereft of the "great light" needed to see the way through all those semantic landmines, and to avoid the lip of the slippery slope.

Apparently a good translation is not perspicuous enough.

#56 of 0 top
Robert James Elliott    15 August 2011 1:34am
"When the Reformers said it was a self-interpreting book, they didn't mean that you needed no background information to interpret it."

Who provides the "background information"? Who judges whether the background information is right or wrong? This is a question of authority surely?

#57 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    15 August 2011 2:13am
Robert J E,

The Reformers were aiming to delegitimise the interpretive monopoly of the papacy, as Michael J observed at #3.

It seems to me that once the magisterial Reformers had divorced the papacy and sparked off ecclesiastical fission, they found that they were constrained to set up little Reformist neo-papacies of their own, one for each fresh schism.

Sola scriptura was a gambit in a sixteenth century game of thrones.

Who judges whether the background information is right or wrong? This is a question of authority surely?

Surely is. In the case of SydAngs, this authority is invested effectively in the Knoxic succession at Moore College - holy see writ small.

#58 of 0 top
Robert James Elliott    15 August 2011 2:45am
This issue arises constantly. If the Petrine authority is rejected, what is the replacement? When the reformers failed to reform the Church and instead rebelled and created their own churches, chaos progressively ensued. This discussion exemplifies it: Sydney Anglicans being asked to choose between two North American Baptists.

I increasingly see the Reformation - be it Reformers erroneous zeal or Roman intransigence to recognise corruptions - as an enormous disaster for Christianity. Every evil ism has its roots in the Reformation and the resulting idea that we are our own best judges and we should reject authority. Di's questions to Michael about the need for non-Scriptural materials are perfectly reasonable -- either Sola Scriptura means what it says or it does not. Sola Scriptura is not mentioned in the Bible and Peter warns against private interpretation of Scripture (2 Peter 1:20).

#59 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    15 August 2011 3:09am
re my comment @ #57

"this authority is invested effectively in the Knoxic succession"

should read

"this authority is vested effectively in the Knoxic succession"

#60 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    15 August 2011 4:01am
Robert J E,
either Sola Scriptura means what it says or it does not.
Sola Scriptura is not mentioned in the Bible and Peter warns against private interpretation of Scripture (2 Peter 1:20).

For the record, 2 Peter 1:20 refers to the prophetic sections of the Tanakh, not the gospels and epistles of the New Testament.

The Christian "Bible" does not of itself define what constitutes "The Bible" as canon. "The Bible" did not anthologise itself; the principles of selectivity underlying its formation were matters of authority and tradition.

Even the Trinity is, at best, only implicit in "The Bible", and inferred from it, not actually defined in it. Anyone who holds that belief in the Trinitarian nature of God is necessary for salvation owes at least some kudos to the role of interpretive authority and tradition in the church, alongside Scripture.

If it's the case that the very formation of Scripture is historically explicable, then it follows that refinements in historical knowledge can (and should) enhance the understanding of Scripture. Whether this is good for "belief" is another matter.

Di, like Piper, is adhering more rigorously to the principle of sola scriptura, in a forensically pristine sense; Michael J seems to be contending for a rather more malleable sorta sola scriptura that accommodates - and even requires (sshh) - the sort of intellectual expertise that he and Don Carson trade in.

#61 of 0 top
Colin Murdoch    15 August 2011 5:04am
Christians who are lukewarm are lukewarm...God can do more with the hot and cold than the lukewarm...Too many Christians are lukewarm and that is one of the major reasons many denominations and churches are stagnate or dying...Are you prepared to count the cost of being hot for the Lord? Oh what a great day that will be for the Church and the Kingdom of God when it happens!

#62 of 0 top
Robert Denham    15 August 2011 7:12am
I am trying to imagine John Knox at Moore College.... I didn't think Moore Colege was around when John Knox was around, nor that Moore was very Presbyterian.

#63 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    15 August 2011 7:18am
Robert D,

I had in mind D Broughton Knox (1916-94).

#64 of 0 top
Kevin Russell    16 August 2011 2:12am
Hi Michael

Pls accept my apologies for the way I interpreted how aspects of the discussion were going. It’s what I read into #47 and I was obviously wrong at this point.

All I know about Carson’s and Piper’s views are what you present in this post. In practise I do look at the historical background. However, I remain disturbed. Theologically, I have to question the view that the ‘historical background is indispensible for its right interpretation.’ We know and accept that since the Reformation we pay careful attention to the background to the text such as history and grammar etc. Prior to that time, to my understanding, there was much more attention to figural modes of reading (abuses aside-they can and do occur in both methods).

But I have to lean towards the Piper view as presented, because although the Bible is embedded in history, it’s not just history – it’s some history plus theological interpretation. The bible uses those events in history, (God’s relationship with ancient Israel, the life of Jesus and the early church), to reveal our God to us. The connect is not external history but the Holy Spirit. ‘Sola Scriptura’ meaning that the Scriptures alone are the primary source for doing theology – but of course, as the Reformers put it ‘the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scriptures.’ I am not sure that Piper has drawn a false dichotomy, but has merely called us back to the core document of revelation.

(To Be Continued)

#65 of 0 top
Kevin Russell    16 August 2011 2:13am
(Continuing)

Illumination is surely the Holy Spirit’s ongoing role in bringing us to conviction about Bible truth.

To be sure, there are errors in Bible Reading to be avoided. A prime one that I observe (in my context – where I live, etc) is intellectualism whereby certain Christians are so concerned about an accurate reading of the text, concerns of history etc, but won’t discuss the personal/theological out workings – the latter is avoided like the plague!

#66 of 0 top
Dianne Howard    16 August 2011 2:33am
I’ve read some ‘christian’ articles (not Australian) this week on various topics and each time the teaching has evidenced a poor understanding of the Bible in relation to ‘interpretation’. There was no clear appreciation evident in the articles of the historical nature of the Bible text. Interpretation looked like a ‘cut and glue together’ method!

It’s a failure to read the Bible on its own terms, especially in relation to understanding the meaning that God is communicating in each text, derived from word meaning and most importantly context – the context within the text and the overall historical context.

The main failure was to miss the primacy of the gospel for understanding, for ‘interpreting’.

cont...

#67 of 0 top
Dianne Howard    16 August 2011 2:34am
Michael, re the example of 'paidagogos', having researched the background I was still drawn to the significance of the context as there are many nuances associated with the practice of the child/guardian relationship at the time. So context still played a vital part in understanding. In fact I worked out from the context what I thought Paul was on about before I did the research and didn’t change my mind after researching the word. That is credit to translation at this point.

By far the biggest mistake Bible readers make is the failure to read the context and appreciate the historical placement of a text in relation to all the other Bible books. Scripture interpreted by scripture is so important and at times so lacking.

I reckon if you took the word 'paidagogos' out of the Bible and left a blank you could read the Bible and get the concept of the word that was missing. The Bible really is very clear on what we need to understand about salvation. It is all about God, his suffering servant and redemption. If a person isn’t jumping out of their skin after reading Galatians – then no word study, particularly of a seldom used culturally specific word, will ever rescue them!!

cont...

#68 of 0 top
Dianne Howard    16 August 2011 2:34am
I guess the challenge for all of us is to not lose sight of the purpose of the text and the clarity of the author who desires that all people be saved. The message of the Bible is not difficult to understand but difficult for our hearts to trust Him, hence the necessity of grace.

Scripture is given that we might understand the gospel and trust, which will be to the glory of God.

Di

#69 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    16 August 2011 4:21am
Di @ #67
By far the biggest mistake Bible readers make is the failure to read the context and appreciate the historical placement of a text in relation to all the other Bible books. Scripture interpreted by scripture is so important and at times so lacking.

Do you take into account the likely date of composition when interpreting a text? How does it affect interpretation, say, when one considers that Galatians was written before the Gospels? Or that Daniel, though set in the 6th century BC, was largely composed after the 2nd century BC? Or that parts of the minor prophets antedate the creation of the Pentateuch?

And do you take into account questions of authorship when interpreting texts, such as, for example, who actually wrote the Gospels; whether certain epistles traditionally attributed to Paul were actually his; whether a Bronze Age 'Moses' actually had anything to do with much of the Pentateuch?

When you accept the 'Gospel of Matthew' as Scripture, does it matter whether the 'apostle Matthew' actually wrote it? Though tradition assigns the Fourth Gospel to the apostle John son of Zebedee, was this Galilean fisherman really 'the Beloved Disciple'?

If Christian claims of the Bible's uniquely "historical" status are to be taken seriously, then these sorts of questions shouldn't be marginalised. And they can't be answered by recourse to Scripture alone.

#70 of 0 top
Frank Savage    17 August 2011 11:07pm
Grant.. the questions you refer to have been raised mainly by people who do not assume there is an eternal, all wise Creator, well able and willing to communicate accurately to his people.

But we assume that "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."
We are convinced also that "no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." So "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

We believe the declaration of Jesus "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me", and "scripture cannot be broken". His endorsement and resurrection remove all doubt.

There is no higher authority to appeal to than scripture itself. It is the word of God who does not lie, who inspired the writers, and preserved the text. It is not just the ideas of man.

#71 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    18 August 2011 2:31am
Frank,

You have asserted a "cos it just is" apologetic for the Bible's status - circular and unfalsifiable. I know what you assume, what you're convinced of, and what you believe, and I know that you've consigned the sorts of historical questions I ask to irrelevancy.

Grant...the questions you refer to have been raised mainly by people who do not assume there is an eternal, all wise Creator, well able and willing to communicate accurately to his people.


There's the rub. The communication ain't all that "accurate". In his wisdom, this Creator has not seen fit to reveal a definitive list of which books comprise his all-sufficient anthology, and who actually authored them. He seems to have left that to human tradition and collegial consensus.

I assume that an all wise God who is able and willing to communicate accurately would not need to limit himself to a 'Holy Bible' composed piecemeal by a single ethnic group in just two languages.

I assume that a God interested in clear communication would not trade in exaggerated rhetoric, opaque forecasts, and parables designed to conceal truth; nor would such a God need to make the idioms of the Iron Age Levant normative for all times, places, and peoples.

There is no higher authority to appeal to than scripture itself. It is the word of God who does not lie, who inspired the writers, and preserved the text. It is not just the ideas of man.

And who decided that? Men.

#72 of 0 top
Frank Savage    18 August 2011 6:00am
Hi Grant.
Only the Holy Spirit can help you see it, as he did the Thessalonians. Paul said, "we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe."

Men moved by God = God directed the whole process. Do you believe in God? In a God who is able to work in and through the minds of men, and control all things (writing, selection, translation, transmission) according to his perfect will? Without faith in this God you cannot please him, or begin to understand the invisible spiritual reality of the kingdom of God. or how he works his sovereign will in this visible world.

#73 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    18 August 2011 7:30am
Let's see, Paul believed that certain men (including himself) were mouthpieces of the Jewish God, therefore they actually were.

That may work for you, Frank, but there's no Holy Spirit magically convincing me.

Men moved by God = God directed the whole process.

An imaginative leap. Maybe God did. Still doesn't address the sorts of questions I raise.

Do you believe in God?

Do I believe in Frank Savage's Presbyterian God. No, I don't.

Without faith in this God you cannot please him, or begin to understand the invisible spiritual reality of the kingdom of God. or how he works his sovereign will in this visible world.

Oh well. Can't please Frank Savage's Presbyterian God...

#74 of 0 top
Frank Savage    18 August 2011 9:37am
Hi Grant. Thank you for your honesty.
The one and only God, your Creator, loves you. One day you will stand before him as your judge. You, like me, and everyone, have sinned against him. He is offering forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, through your repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins, and rose again. I pray you will believe in him, now while you can.

#75 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    18 August 2011 10:15am
Thanks for the, um, threat.

#76 of 0 top
Frank Savage    18 August 2011 10:36pm
What about the offer? Eternal life. Free, too! What love and grace! You'll never get a better offer. "now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."

#77 of 0 top
Grant Hayes    19 August 2011 1:00am
Now is the time of the hard sell, now is the day of the insurance salesman...

#78 of 0 top
Frank Savage    19 August 2011 3:43am
Dear Grant
An insurance salesmen would get money from you. I get nothing.
Salvation is a free gift to you. Jesus Christ paid the bill.

Grace and peace to you.
Frank

#79 of 0 top
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