AUDIO

by Archbishop Peter Jensen
Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
Do you have a soul?
Michael Jensen
June 13th, 2011

Do you have a soul?

I’m not talking about whether you can get down to Aretha Franklin or not. Rather I am asking: should we think of human beings as beings in two parts, or two aspects? Are we merely physical and bodily, or is there something else to us in addition to this? When you die and your body decays, where will ‘you’ go? And in what form? Is there something in us which is intrinsically immortal?

Christian theologians have traditionally thought of the human person dualistically – that is as a being composed of both a body and soul. This was reflected in the Council of Chalcedon of 454 AD which is famous for defining the two natures of Jesus Christ. In trying to describe the full humanity of Jesus it spoke about him dualistically:
…our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body.

What the Council was trying to affirm was that the soul wasn’t some divine ‘bit’ in Jesus’ otherwise human nature. He was wholly man – thus constituted of a reasonable soul and a body.

But how are we to think of this ‘soul’? And what does the Bible commit us to in this regard? Must we understand ourselves to have an identifiable ‘self’ which is distinguishable but usually inseparable from our bodies?

The question is sharpened by the advance of modern neurology, which claims to be able to identify the physical manifestations of all of our thoughts and feelings. The notion of a ‘soul’ seems surplus to requirements. Must theologians insist upon it?

A lot of the theological debate focuses around several passages in the New Testament which seem to give us grounds for thinking that there is some way in which we will continuously exist between our deaths and the resurrection of the dead. For example, Paul speaks in Philippians 1:20-24 of his desire to die and ‘be with Christ’ as opposed to living ‘in the body’. Likewise, in 2 Cor 5:6-9, Paul says: ‘as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.’ The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16, the appearance of the ‘ghost’ of Samuel to Saul via the Witch of Endor and the thief on the cross to whom Jesus said ‘Today I will be with you in paradise’ are also passages that are brought in as evidence that there is a period in between our death and the resurrection in which we exist as disembodied souls.

The implication of this line of argument is that, if we will one day consciously exist but not in our bodies then as we exist currently we must be composed of bodies and souls.

But does the Bible commit us to this view? Given the overwhelming emphasis in the New Testament on the resurrection of the body, then it seems odd for us to think of ourselves as potentially disembodied souls. It seems to sit oddly with the way Scripture thinks of the ultimate human future as physical. Aren’t we guilty of importing the influence of Greek philosophy when we think of ourselves as having these twin natures?

Certainly, the Old Testament word often translated ‘soul’ – nephesh - doesn’t mean what ‘soul’ has come to mean in much of Christian thought. The human person not have a nephesh, he or she is a nephesh. What's more, as OT scholar Hans Walter Wolff writes:
We must not fail to observe that the nephesh is never given the meaning of an indestructible core of being, in contradistinction to the physical life, and even capable of living when cut off from that life.

We ought to notice, too, that in none of the passages usually listed in defence of the distinct ‘soul’ idea is the word ‘soul’ (in its Greek or Hebrew form) mentioned. In fact, in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus it seems quite specific that there is a physical afterlife – after all, the Rich Man asks if Lazarus can cool his tongue with his finger.

The word ‘body’ in Paul’s usage need not be contrasted to ‘soul’, either, since he could easily be speaking of his old, decaying body in contrast to his future embodied existence.

Furthermore, it seems a doubtful theological method to sketch a view of the human person on the basis of these references. They don’t seem to be teaching us specifically about the composition of the human person, nor about cosmology. In the case of the parable in Luke 16, Jesus is using the pop-theology of the day rather than making a concerted case for a particular view of the afterlife. That’s not his point.

The absolutely crucial piece of theological information, I reckon, is that Jesus Christ is now in heaven reigning as an embodied person. Heaven is not somewhere, in other words, that only disembodied souls can enter. This is surely the truth that must govern the way we think about the body and the soul. Whatever ‘soul’ means, it doesn’t not mean something separable from our bodies as if we have a shadowy other haunting our every move. If we are in Christ when we die, we are ‘with him’ in the sense that we are with him in heaven now. Paul says to the (living) Colossians ‘our lives are hid with Christ in God’ and there is no sense in which he is saying there is a soulish bit of them in heaven now.  Likewise when we die: it is perfectly consistent with the NT to say we are with Christ without saying that we have a ghostly other self actually located with him. Our ‘with-Christ-ness’ consists in his life and the promise it holds for our resurrection on the final day.

The biggest problem that still remains, however, is this: how can there be a continuity between my identity now and my identity at the resurrection? If I am given a new body at the resurrection, then in what sense will it be ‘me’ and not some other being simply implanted with my memories? This is a very good question to which I think there is no easy answer. I think that, as I have already suggested, the union with Christ that we already experience is probably the key. But I don’t think the traditional dualist has a more plausible answer. 
 

Dave Lankshear    13 June 2011 10:58pm
OK, my brain is full now.

I'm just wondering, if we inherit a physical body when we go to be with Christ, what rises at the Last Day? Or is that some sort of picture language?
1 Cor 15

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Michael Jensen    13 June 2011 11:02pm
No - I don't think anyone would argue that 'with Christ' in between our death and the resurrection is a physical state. But is it a conscious 'soulish' state in which we remember things without our brains and are recogniseable without our faces?

Isn't it more plausible to think of that 'with Christ' as our security in the promises of God that he will raise us on the last day - and that we are just dead in the meantime?

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Michael Kellahan    13 June 2011 11:18pm
Michael - what sense do you make of Matthew 10.28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Isn't Jesus dualist here?

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Michael Jensen    13 June 2011 11:31pm
Seems like it, yes. But is he separationist? I think some kind of dualism is Biblical - that is, we are more than merely our bodies.

The question is what does this notion of 'soul' mean? If we understood it to mean our 'identity' - which includes that part of us that accrues the guilt we need atonement for - then you can make sense of the passage without having to import a whole metaphysical structure to support it.

It is noticeable how Jesus doesn't say 'man can kill the body but God can 'kill' the soul' - but rather that both as a unity are subject to the destruction of hell.

I'd be interested to hear how the word 'destory' is interpreted here.

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Sean Heslehurst    13 June 2011 11:55pm
Hi Michael

this is a very important discussion especially with your emphasis on the physical resurrection. In my limited experience as a pastor I have continually noticed peoples trouble with this idea that has lead them to down playing the physical resurrection in one way or another. Is there a good paper that follows this argument or can I encourage you to expand on this little piece, especially as something to give people who are thinking this through. it would be very helpful.

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James Ramsay    14 June 2011 12:12am
"The question is sharpened by the advance of modern neurology, which claims to be able to identify the physical manifestations of all of our thoughts and feelings."

It does? Not last time I looked. We can identify areas associated with processing certain things, but to claim more than that is pure fantasy. Especially as the idea of "soul" in neuro-science is of a non-deterministic initiator.

As to your last point that can be raised about something as prosaic as sleep. How would you know if the original "you" had been killed and replaced with a replicant while asleep? There is no continuity of consciousness, so one can't affirm that the person they are today is the same as the one they were yesterday by referring to an unbroken record of events.

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Dave Lankshear    14 June 2011 12:18am
Isn't it more plausible to think of that 'with Christ' as our security in the promises of God that he will raise us on the last day - and that we are just dead in the meantime?

Cheers Michael — I think I just misunderstood one of the article's sentences, but that clarifies it.

Also, following Sean's comment, what are the Pastoral implications of this idea for grieving families? What if someone is fixated on the horror of 'in-between nihilism' even if it isn't eternal nihilism?

Personally, having survived a few general anaesthetics over the years, I'm not that fussed. Either way I'll "go to sleep" and wake up in glory — whether that's in a soulish way nanoseconds after my death or in my new resurrection body at the Last Day ten thousand years in the future.

But the widow left behind might ask us, "But where is he now?" and become quite distressed if we don't have a good sound-byte worked out.

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Dave Lankshear    14 June 2011 12:22am
How are we to understand "In my father's house..."? Is that just picture language for the family of God?

Another concept: do we ever 'go to heaven'? Should we drop the word 'heaven' from our language?

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Michael Jensen    14 June 2011 12:24am
@James - no neuroscientist I. It is certainly the case that sweeping claims are being made in the name of neuroscience.

I should have added in the article: one of the arguments put forward in favour of keeping a 'soul' in the traditional sense is that if we are just physical beings we have no way of account for our free actions outside the world of cause and effect. It is an interesting point, though I do think there needs to be an examination of all its premises.

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Mark Williamson    14 June 2011 1:56am
Thanks Michael,
What do you make of Peter Bolt's suggestion that the 'unclean spirits' of the New Testament would have been understood as spirits of the departed (ie ghosts)?

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Dave Lankshear    14 June 2011 2:17am
Thanks Michael,
What do you make of Peter Bolt's suggestion that the 'unclean spirits' of the New Testament would have been understood as spirits of the departed (ie ghosts)?


I'll second that question.

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Ernest Burgess    14 June 2011 4:28am
Tom Wright's book "surprised by hope" shares a lot of interesting insights on this topic not the least heaven coming down and merging with this current earth, however I like his quote from Tertullian " It's God's business, he says he's the creator so he can and will sort it out, Origen appears to of said our bodies are in a state of flux(something I recognise when I hop on the scales)

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Dianne Howard    14 June 2011 5:37am
re the ‘pastoral’ issues Sean raised.

Most problems seem to arise when speculation or sentimentality get a run.

Although there are things we don’t know, there is so much that our heavenly Father has given us to know so that we don’t lose hope – things that are so very wonderful and reassuring and certain. For example...

Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (1 John 3)

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Philippians)

No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. (Revelations 22)

Di

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Michael Jensen    14 June 2011 6:22am
Re Peter's material on ghosts. I think I simply disagree. It may have been that characters in the gospels believed in ghosts. But that doesn't commit us to believing in them.

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Matthew Payne    14 June 2011 8:19am
Do we need to have a theological construct the explains how there is an intermediate state in order to believe that there is one?

I agree that we shouldn't hold a body-soul dualism - the New Testament doesn't support one. However, the texts cited such as Philippians 1 and 2 Corinthians 5 do teach an intermediate state without spelling out the details. I think that reading them through a body-soul dualism misrepresents them. However, I think that reading them as examples of Christ's representative presence in heaven for us also misrepresents them in order to make them cohere with a different theological construct.

If we are in Christ when we die, we are ‘with him’ in the sense that we are with him in heaven now.


I don't think that works. Yes, Paul was 'with Christ' whilst alive, but he was also 'away from the lord'. He viewed his imminent post-death, pre-resurrection state as being 'with Christ' in a way that he wasn't previously. What does that mean? I don't know, but I think it implies post-death, pre-resurrection experience of being with Jesus without giving us the categories to spell out the details.

I acknowledge we still need to work out what to say to people. "Where is my dead relative?" In one sense they are in the ground. In another sense we know that even in death they are in the presence of Jesus awaiting the resurrection. How does that work? I don't know, but I think it is what the Bible teaches.

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Robert Denham    15 June 2011 12:53am
There is always 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 my summary of which states that when Jesus comes, he will bring with him those who have died, then their bodies will be raised & the living go up to meet with them in the air.
Like the souls under the throne of heaven in Rev 5, this seems very strongly to suggest that those who die in Christ go to be with him , but are not in their final form of the resurrected until He returns.
However, what of the difference between spirit and soul. When Jesus died, he commited his SPIRIT to his Father (lK 23:46) & then breathed his last. Mt 27:50 says he gave up his spirit. Is that just breath? Then what is to be understand by 1 Cor 2:11, which says our spirit understands our thoughts (or whatever is to be assumed in the assumed word here), & God's spirit understands his thoughts.

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Matthew Payne    15 June 2011 2:38am
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is interesting. The dead in Christ are spoken of as coming from two places: they come with Jesus from above and yet also rise from the ground.

On the other hand, I think that this text can be read as Michael proposed: the dead come with Christ in the sense that his resurrected body itself is their hope, and at his appearing they will participate in the same resurrected life that he does by the Spirit. The passage describes this occurring. In this passage, Christ coming with the dead is vicarious and representative of those who died hoping in him.

I think that the biblical texts that specify parts of the person (spirit, soul, body, etc) are non-technical and imprecise. Their referents are inconsistent across the canon (and even in the one author!), and the terms overlap with each other: they are not technical/philosophical terms. Therefore we can't build a picture of the composition of human beings from these instances (Michael's original point).
The question for me is whether this rules out being able to speak of an intermediate state. I don't think it does.

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Ernest Burgess    16 June 2011 11:22am
Just wondering if you saw the programme on ABC2 last night "am I normal " which was on spirituality and the the British psychiatrist using an "extention" of CBT to ask the spirits of the dead to leave other peoples bodies they were occupying and does it raise questions to Marks question at 10# and your reply at 14#? As a side point from the same programme show a neuro-scientist showing that the speech from speaking in tongues did not come from the normal speech area of the brain.I have also often recommended Dr Michael Barbato's ( specialist in paliative care) book "care for the dying" I understand his second book deals with a lot of para-normal issues that occur around the time of death so it may also be a good resource book to have for pastoral ministry

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Robert Denham    18 June 2011 1:27pm
Matthew,
I can understand the position you have stated clearly, but I don't accept it. The text does not say that the dead have their hopes coming with the coming of Jesus, but that they come with Jesus. One might even postulate the idea that they are with him, but in order to satisfy that part of the grieving alive Christians that the apostle Paul reminds them that they will rise as well (or some such opposite case of what you have given, which takes the onvious words and makes them say something slightly less obvious).
The obvious wording is as you correctly pointed out at first, that 1 Thess 4:13-18 gives 2 sources from where those who sleep in Christ will come from when he returns, not simply one. Both can be found in other scriptures which have been attested to earlier, so we will be with the Lord, yet our body will return to the ground (unless we are in the sea).
Pastorally either way of understanding this passage still assures the living that those who have hoped in Christ are secure in the Lord.
Interestingly, the Roman Catholic doctrine of saints shows that what you posited & what Michael suggested has not been the dominant view of what happens after death. Even though they did not treat all Christians the same, their doctrine of the saints means they believe some of the deceased are not "dead" in the grave, but are alive and well in heaven, & others who are bound for heaven are, if they still accept the doctrine of purgatory suffering before entering heaven.

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Matthew Payne    19 June 2011 3:16am
Robert - thanks for the response.

You could of course be right, and I am open to that possibility. However, I am not convinced that this is necessarily what this text says. My point was that it is possible Michael's view fits with this text. If Christ himself is my life and I am united to him by the Spirit, then it is possible that the idea of Jesus bringing us with him at his return is representative. I think that this concept fits very easily with Paul's theology, and is within the spectrum of ideas that he could be communicating with this language. The idea of Christ's identification with his people is very strong in Paul.

As far as this text goes, there are lots of exegetical difficulties and I don't think that it is straightforward at all. Most relevant to this discussion: it is possible that both the views we have presented are wrong. In verse 14, it could be that God 'brings' OR 'takes' his people with Jesus - the verb works in both directions (v14). Gene Green's commentary (PNTC) argues that the latter view is preferable. The point Paul is making in this case is: "don't think that the dead will miss out on the resurrection because they aren't alive and waiting for him. They will be raised first!"
(In fact, rereading the text now I can see why this is probably right. The passage is all about Jesus taking, not bringing).

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Matthew Payne    19 June 2011 3:21am
The wider issue is how to express believers' post-death, pre-resurrection experience of Christ attested in passages such as Philippians 1 and 2 Corinthians 5. I think what I want to avoid is what you call the "majority view" that believers are "alive and well in heaven". I want people to be assured that death will not separate them from Christ, but we need to do it in such a way that makes them eagerly long for Christ to return. Simply speaking of heaven doesn't achieve this - NT faith is directed towards Jesus' return and the fullness of salvation not being experienced until then.

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Robert Denham    19 June 2011 4:14am
I am not as intent on avoiding that idea. I am more intent on avoiding other heresies which have unfortunately crept into Christian thought & into the more common world views such as ghosts, becoming stars or angels, the unbelievers partying up there watching what we're doing & chilling a tinnie for us, the very intimate reunions as if couples were married in heaven etc.

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Matthew Payne    19 June 2011 4:59am
I agree that all those things should certainly be opposed. In fact, I think that the best way to oppose them is by reasserting the NT emphasis on longing for the return of the Lord Jesus. If we see the fullness of salvation as coming into effect only when he returns, then by implication we rule out a whole host of weird and destructive heresies, such as those you listed.

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Donna Green    19 June 2011 7:48am
I just can't get my head around the soul remaining with the body in a grave until the second coming. It seems a bizarre proposal to me and one which surprises me. I don't think our being with Christ now is anything like us being with Christ when we die. We exist in time now, in heaven there is no time. We are not subject to nature in Heaven like we are when we are alive. It has to be different. If we have 'run the good race', then it is an awfully long time to wait until I can actually be with Him in the real sense. Aren't we to see Him face to face when we die?

It is awfully close to what SDAs believe that the soul is not immortal (although I am not suggesting that this is what has been proposed) and perhaps caution needs to be given so that this sort of departure from fundamental Christian doctrine doesn't lead to more serious heresies.

If the soul remains with the dead body where does the soul reside when the body corrupts? Perhaps we need to call the Ghostbusters!

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Michael Jensen    19 June 2011 8:09am
Donna - what if the soul isn't a 'thing' in the way you say it is?

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Dave Lankshear    19 June 2011 10:59am
Exactly... what was that CS Lewis quote? What if you don't have a soul, but are a soul?

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Dave Lankshear    19 June 2011 11:02am
Michael, do you have a name for the 'timewarp' idea that on death Christians go STRAIGHT to the Last Day?

Some base this on the Thief on the Cross... "Today you will be with me"... and couple it with the dead rising on the Last Day to mean they don't even 'sleep' but the essential them shoots straight through to the Last Day.

Now how one would subjectively tell the difference I don't know. ;-)

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Ernest Burgess    20 June 2011 1:45am
Robert and Matthew, what are your thoughts on Matthew 27 verses 52 to 53? Was there a pre resurrection before Jesus was the first fruits? Or do we consider these folk the same as Lazarus and that they would die again?

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Matthew Payne    20 June 2011 2:54am
Any people healed or raised died afterwards.
Nobody else has received the resurrection to bodily immortality that Jesus alone has, and nobody else will until the final day, when we will also share in Jesus' inheritance: the renewed heaven and earth, to which such bodies belong.

(So, by implication, I think that even Enoch and Elijah are eagerly awaiting the resurrection of the body on the final day. But I can't say any more than that about them).

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Ernest Burgess    20 June 2011 4:56am
Matthew, What about the case for Moses and Elijah at the mount of Transfiguration(Matthew 17)They had bodies and they talked with Jesus, They had to of had brains (intelligence) to do that and they were clearly recognisable ( see Michael's comment at 2#

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Ernest Burgess    20 June 2011 5:24am
Dave a couple of questions Jesus words to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" is paradise different to heaven given Jesus words in John 20:17 and if C S Lewis was right what do we make of verse such as Hebrews 4:12 where it seems to suggest that we are body,spirit,soul?

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Donna Green    20 June 2011 5:39am
There seems to be a confusion between dualism and hylomorphism. Dualism argues for a separation of the body and soul. While there are advances in science, neurology cannot explain the interaction between the soul and the body. Michael, you seem to be arguing for both but they cannot co-exist. Dave's quote from C. S. Lewis, saying that we are our souls seems to agree with hylomorphism. This philosophy, developed by Aristotle and Aquinas argues for an en-souled body. It also says that the soul is subsistent, i.e. that it remains intact and returns to God after death. But this is a very Catholic philosophy and is not dualism. Matthew, if you are trying to avoid the idea that people are alive and well in heaven then you have to avoid the white-robed army in revelation. These souls are worshipping God in heaven before the second coming. They seem alive and well according to John.

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Michael Jensen    20 June 2011 6:12am
Depends what you mean by 'soul', Donna.

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Dave Lankshear    20 June 2011 10:24am
And I'd be careful of drawing up any prescriptive theology — kind of like a set of coloured glasses — through which you'd then read the rest of scripture based on Revelation. With apocalyptic imagery it's best to work the other way around, from what is clear in the rest of the bible back to then interpret the imagery in Revelation.

That image may just be picture language for the injustices that cry out before our Lord.

@ Michael,
do you find this view more apologetic, more true to the modern understanding of humans? Is that why some of us are attracted to it? I know certain very nice Pressie bible college lecturers that would totally disagree with this view, and for other aesthetic reasons are attracted to the heaven-now-some-how view. I'm happy either way, but my guts tell me that a Christian view of the integrated nature of a human being just rings true with what we see in this reality at least.

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