AUDIO
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Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
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Things, I am afraid, are looking rather grim.
From where I sit, the case for legal recognition same-sex marriage has landed blow after unanswered blow against the traditional alternative. The campaign has appropriated for itself the powerful contemporary language of rights and equality. There have been television ads with celebrities; and articles by top journalists such as David Marr. The Greens seem determined to pursue this issue and to lever their parliamentary influence to this end.
The genius of the campaign has been the way in which it has made its case seem simple and unanswerable. It has made its appeal to middle Australia – that great, largely inert mass of people who don’t have time to think about the issue but have a keen sense of fair play. And it sounds like quite a reasonable ask: all gay and lesbian couples are asking for is the same recognition by the government that heterosexual couples receive.
What’s more, the campaign has cast those who might uphold the traditional view as bigots driven by religious zealotry, determined to impose their irrational and medieval views on the rest of the community come what may. I am fully expecting this article to lead to such accusations.
Small wonder there has been little by way of response. We in the churches have been, I think, afraid to make the public case in defence of traditional marriage. All we have offered is a stunned silence.
Partly this is because the way in which the rules of the debate have been framed by the emotive language of the campaign for change. Arguments which appeal to religious traditions and texts are given no place whatsoever. And since Christians believe what they believe about marriage on the basis of Scripture, it seems that we cannot say anything germane to the public issue.
I understand and sympathise with those who argue that actually it would be better if the churches withdrew from advocacy for legal recognition of traditional marriage. After all, we don’t believe that we are dependent on the state for the reality of marriage. We are too reliant on the state to protect these things. Perhaps we are better letting the government do what they like, and just modelling in our own communities a different kind of relationship, which we will call ‘marriage’. And perhaps too our concern over this issue distorts our witness to the community about the gospel of Jesus. It makes us too easy to categorise as people lacking grace and compassion, whatever the reality.
But marriage is not merely something that we know about from the Christian revelation. It emerges from our very human nature. And it is a divine gift to all humankind, not just to the Christian community. If we are interested in the wellbeing of the Australian community, I would suggest, we cannot sit idly by and watch the institution of marriage disintegrate.
So: it is time for those of us who would support traditional marriage to work hard at this issue. We must do much better than we have with recent public debates (I am thinking of SRE especially) in speaking to the general community with non-defensiveness, intelligence and compassion. It will certainly take courage, because of the censoriousness of the opposition.
There is an opportunity, however, because in their assumption that there is nothing that can be said against them the advocates of the revisionist campaign have majored on rhetoric and emotion and neglected to put forward a plausible case. So far, the case seems to be: ‘we want what you have. That is, we want equality with heterosexuals as far as the legal recognition of our relationships goes. Most of all we want to be able to use the word ‘marriage’.’
What no-one seems to notice is that the proposed revision of marriage laws involves … a revision of marriage. That is, they wish to change the meaning of marriage in order to have what we now call marriage. Only, if the law grants to them ‘marriage’, it won’t be the same at all. It will have become something essentially different.
As it is currently understood, marriage is not merely the expression of a love people have for each other. It is (in the words of scholars Girgis, George and Anderson of Princeton and Notre Dame Universities) “a comprehensive union of two sexually complementary persons who seal (consummate or complete) their relationship by the generative act—by the kind of activity that is by its nature fulfilled by the conception of a child.”
This is not a random definition; nor is it one based in divine revelation (though it accords with the teachings of many religious traditions). It is the meaning of marriage that emerges from almost all human civilisations across history; and which reflects who human beings are in their very bodily selves. There is a union which only persons of complementary sex can share. Only this two can become ‘one flesh’ – and that is not some spooky, mystical phrase: it is a matter of tangible reality.
Were same-sex relationships to be admitted as ‘marriages’, this essence of marriage itself would have to be held to be something other than what it is. This is what some pro-revision advocates themselves think. Andrew Sullivan, a leading academic advocate for same-sex marriage, writes that as far as he is concerned, marriage has become“primarily a way in which twoadults affirm their emotional commitment to one another.” Brandeis University’s E.J Graff thinks that recognition of same-sex unions would change marriage so that it would “ever after stand for sexual choice, forcutting the link between sex and diapers.”
Here’s the thing. The advocates of same-sex marriage are counting for success on that great staple of Australian politics - the apathy of the great majority of Australians. It sounds to most of us as if recognizing same-sex marriage won’t affect or harm most of us at all. It sounds as if denying gay and lesbian couples this ‘right’ is petty and discriminatory.
But that doesn’t reckon with the fact that the way in which marriage is described will be completely changed. It will be something else. The distinctive orientation of marriage towards the bearing and nurture of children is to be dissolved. In its stead, we have a view of marriage which places sexual choice and emotional commitment at the centre. Under this definition (which is rarely articulated), there is of course no reason why marriage rights should not be granted to polyamorous relationships, or indeed any other type of sexual relationship. Indeed, it is unclear even why sexual activity should be the focal point – why couldn’t long term housemates or inseparable golfing partners likewise seek recognition at law for their relationships?
What is missing from the revisionist case is a clear and reasonable definition of marriage as they would like to see it – one that is deeper than just ‘choice’ or ‘emotions’. This is because for the most part advocates want the wider community to think that the change will be minimal in impact.
It won’t be. The definition of marriage is changed, that will affect all of us. It will further destabilise the bedrock of our social order, as the liberalisation of divorce laws has tended to do – to the measurable and visible detriment of many of our fellow citizens.
Marriage is a public, not a private matter – which, by advocating so strongly for change, revisionists themselves tacitly acknowledge. It is not simply therefore a matter of allowing a freedom for others. It is a matter of determining what best promotes the flourishing of Australia’s citizens.


Also people shouldn't think the attack on the definition of marriage co-incidental. The groups that have been pushing it for all these years are quite open about being anti-monogamy and promoting "open marriages*".
And yes the knots same-sex union advocates get into in trying to explain why same-sex unions should be called "marriage" but polygamy/gyny and golf partners getting "married" shouldn't be allowed is very funny.
In my opinion Christians lost the fight for traditional marriage when no-fault divorces came about.
* There was a quite damning survey of the level of infidelity in gay men in "monogamous" relationships in America which was quietly brushed under the carpet.
Think about how much energy would be involved in waging a successful "campaign". Is that really where we want to spend our time? Is that really what we want our sound-bite message to be in the media?
I simply cannot imagine the apostle Paul waging a political campaign to reform some part of Roman law - it just didn't seem to be on his radar screen. I would much rather see us engage in "Connect 11" this year...
The calculation we have to make, Craig, is to what degree Australian society - and individuals within it - will be damaged by this muted change. Remember, we are not waging a campaign to reform anything - but merely to maintain the status quo because we think (if we do) that is actually a more just outcome.
it is perhaps unlikely that a person supporting same-sex marriage will join our discussion and hold us accountable, and that is a pity. There is certainly a lot that is up for discussion, and it isn't a simple case at all. The debate has already been characterised by a lot of emotional rhetoric and blather - and some of the comments of Christian groups don't help at all.
It may be easy to slip into off-hand quips which could be read as derogatory of gays and lesbians.
So, let us show the utmost care in the tone of our comments.
Martin Luther wrote that the priests had no right to be involved in the marrying business. It was both a private and state matter; not a church matter. His stance was against the Roman Catholic instituting the ordinance in 1550 that for a couple to be recognised as being "married" the priest must preside with two witnesses. Of course a tax / donation was mandated also.
Under the reformation Luther discontinued the practice...though John Calvin continued with it. The marriage act was again introduced in the House of Lords in 1750's where by marriage had to be performed by a priest. Historically those whom we would consider to be in a defacto relationship and living in sin...were considered to be actually married.
Craig S raises an interesting point. The Apostle Paul never spoke against the then current laws regarding marriage; he did however make a point of teaching the church how they should live within those laws. Polygamy for instance was both legal in Roman law and very much part of the Jewish cultural practice...
I see no precedent in the Scriptures where by the church has a mandate to compel society to change its laws to suit the church; rather I see the church being instructed as to how they should live within the confines of the laws...
Where it started exactly I cannot say but “no fault†divorces can’t be far off the mark. Something else that I think needs to be considered is the every churches stance on Homosexualality, not just in Australia but world wide.
My question is: How do you expect to make a stance on marriage regarding same sex when the Churches stance, regardless of denomination is not consistent?
I know what you mean about which battles to join, but there are a couple of reasons not to jump out of this one too soon.
Firstly, as Michael mentioned, love for neighbour. A change will damage people.
Secondly, and looking ahead, for freedom to practice Christian marriage. It seems that social laws in the last little while move rapidly from 'permission' to 'compulsion.' I would expect that pressure will soon come to insist that I (and other celebrants) am forbidden to decline to marry same-sex couples.
I don't think these are knock-down reasons to throw all effort into it, but they move me to get involved in some way.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26c56A9-ac0&h=fd639
Some many problems; where to start?
By "traditional" marriage you mean the modern invention of marriages for love, right? Of course, I assume you want to defend biblical, NT marriage? So let's start agitating for the marriage of minors and laws that make a woman a man's property through marriage again! Yeah! Wait, that's not the tradition you want to defend? You wouldn't be... revising the history of Christian, biblical, "traditional" marriage, would you?
What other important traditions should we look to defend? Maybe we should make homosexuality illegal again? It affects all of us!
Or should we continue the long standing heterosexual tradition of turning a blind to the damage we've wrought on the "institution" of marriage, and instead turn all our attention to the, what, literally 0.1% (less?) of gay people who want to marry because somehow "that will affect all of us"? If it will be to the "measurable ... detriment of many of our fellow citizens" -- measured how? Really, how will you measure this detriment?
"It sounds to most of us as if recognizing same-sex marriage won’t affect or harm most of us at all.
"It sounds as if denying gay and lesbian couples this ‘right’ is petty and discriminatory."
Hysterics notwithstanding, it really, really does.
If marriage is to be between any consenting folk who love one another, as the argument seems to be being presented, shouldn't the marriage act also be changed to allow polygamy and incest?
If this were a referendum question, I think most Australians would vote NO.
At the risk of catastrophising, if Christians meekly withdraw from engaging in a debate like this there is no point in Connect 11 or any other connect. MPJ is correct, we are not trying to change the law but uphold an existing and ordinary manner of description for the life-long union of two sexually complementary human beings that ordinarily results in the generation of new human life.
Even if the institution of marriage mentioned above is only "true" because we have defined it to be so, it is nevertheless "true." To change that definition is exactly the same as saying it is only a matter of antiquated thinking to insist that 1 + 1 = 2.
More importantly, in what sense will we connect with any community when in the face of high rhetoric and emotional manipulation we are told that God lovingly welcomes all human creatures and rejoices in all the multiplicity of their choices and ways of living in the world. We will have no credibility when we start saying, "The definition of sin is this...or the truth about Jesus is that," because we have abandoned the gift of coherent speech that the Gospel gives us in the first place.
@Michael, I think it is accurate, I think my arguments about "traditional" Christian NT marriage are very persuasive, and to be honest I think you have a bad habit of saying "nu-uh" without engaging with the substance of counter-arguments. Do you or don't you support "traditional" NT marriage, i.e. marrying off 12 year olds, and treating women as property?
Perhaps I am oversimplifying things; but it does appear that Paul defines Christianity as a subset of society and not society being a subset of Christianity.
Traditionally and historically within some cultures homosexual marriage has been an acceptable practice; the question has to be asked about "Whose tradition" is threatened. Are the lives of children raised by Gay couples really going to be threatened any more then they are by those raised by Heterosexual couples? Are kids of married parents any safer then the kids from unmarried parents or vice versa?...what about the kids from single parents.
In all the talk and rhetoric about the evils of allowing gay marriage; I have heard little about the emphasis of Scripture calling the church to teach its self the way they should live within society....and I think this is the gist of what Luke is saying.
Imagine the shoe was on the other foot -- say we were a Christian minority in an Islamic country, and (let's say) the Islamic elders were advocating that we should not be able to get married because (a) they think Christianity is wrong, and (b) they are worried the state will force them to Christian-marry these infidels (as per Chris L's objection). We would be up in arms about this, and it would be right of us to say the religious leaders of the day should not legislate their religion through a secular state's laws. Here, however...
But I'm also saying any arguments from Christian "tradition" are quickly and easily disproved :)
The problem is "traditional" marriage has already been redefined by heterosexuals -- couples marry for love first, children second. Most people would regard a committed relationship between two consenting adults as an intrinsically good thing. For example, if a Christian couple is childless, most (I hope!) wouldn't consider the marriage to be flawed or less "real" than any other. Claims that the "revisionists" wanting to "redefine" marriage are inherently in the wrong is an obvious absurdity.
Given this reality of marriage in modern Western society, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that homosexual people would look at this and say "Hey, we're also two adults in a committed, loving relationship, why can't we enjoy the same recognition and rights as everyone else?"
Hysterical cries that accepting this already-existing relationship (ala Justice Kirby) as a marriage will somehow hurt me, Joe Heterosexual, are petty indeed.
I'm sure Justice Kirby, for example, would be surprised to hear that if he were to have his long-term relationship acknowledge by the state as a marriage, it would be contra "what best promotes the flourishing of Australia’s citizens," as Michael puts it.
If we start buying into victimhood and bracing ourselves for these terrible consequences Michael "fully expects" just because we're on the wrong side of the debate, then there really isn't much hope for considered, thoughtful decision making. In this case, insisting that the church has somehow been intimidated into silence might mask the real, simper truth: that there really isn't much to say.
Tradition isn't an argument -- who's tradition? Harm isn't an argument -- what harm? Legislating for specifically Christian morality isn't an argument -- we live in a secular society. Here's your chance to speak freely. Where's your compelling argument?
I get the feeling the emperor simply has no clothes on this one.
(Edit: The idea we've been "silenced" is also odd when the ACL, for example, quizzes the party leaders of the day on the issue. Plus, the major parties currently share the prevailing conservative view. How can you be a silenced minority when you have the support of the major parties?)
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26c56A9-ac0&h=fd639
Again, Christians need to make affirmative arguments for normal, hetero, traditional marriage. They need to be made aggressively and repeatedly. Most voters deep down are tolerant of gays but feel that the marriage concept is not appropriate, but social/cultural norms mean they need to conform to PC.
But our our enemy has a number of very good points. Especially when they say, "Hang on, if you're going to argue from principles, then don't you want to turn the clock back on all sexual ethics stuff?"
And our answer has to be, "Yes. Yes we do. Because the Sexual Revolution has bought women and children nothing but destruction."
The sexual revolution bought no-fault divorce. The result in this country has been every year 50,000 children are afflicted with emotional problems that lead to higher levels of educational drop out, poverty and depression.
The sexual revolution bought the proliferation of porn. The result is that today two-thirds of men are porn users, with long term effects to their brains, and, unsurprisingly, relationship damage. US stats show that most divorce cases feature at least one partner with a porn problem.
The sexual revolution bought of state-approved prostitution, where councils in this state are required by law to provide space for brothels. Ignoring the rebrand by the industry to "sex-workers", these women are almost universally victims – of violence, rape and disease.
Same-sex marriage is the next turn in the revolution that has crippled our civilization. Only this time it's going to damage the very value of gender itself.
What about "forthrightly?"
Why stop there, Matt? Why not go back to NT norms of marrying minors and treating women as property?
The bible wasn't written in 1950.
I think most “middle Australians†– Christian or not - would agree that every Aussie kid has a right to a mum and dad – that every Aussie kid has a right to enjoy the security of a stable family where they feel loved and nurtured.
Changing the definition of marriage erodes marriage as a “safe haven†for children.
I believe the scriptures teach that we are to defend and speak up for the weak and oppressed in society. I think Christian have no option but to enter the debate and make the “rational†case for Aussie kids.
I doubt that many people in 'middle Australia' would deny that there are fundamental differences between the sexes. It follows, then, that a union of a man and a woman is a fundamentally different thing from a union between two men or two women. One is a union of difference, the other of sameness. Therefore, to call them both marriage would be a mistake!
Surely this is the kind of case we should be making in the public sphere?
Two things: I offer this piece fully recognising that the state's recognition of marriage is not what makes a marriage. I am well aware of the church's tendency to be defensive of its own rights at the cost of its mission to the society. The sky will not fall in if same-sex marriages go ahead. But marriage will not be the same in Australia - both sides are actually agreed on this.
Second: human sexuality and its due expression IS important. Actually, everyone thinks that it is on both sides of this argument. No one is more sex-obsessed than anyone else. But in the context of the terrible events in Libya and Christchurch today, these are fairly small bickies.
Also: I think Michael Kirby is a remarkable human being, as far as human beings go.
A popular male Jewish prayer is "I thank you God that I am not a Gentile, Female or slave" Certainly the is a historical argument that wives were and still are in many cultures considered to be a commodity.
YES its true that homosexual marriage has no place within Christian culture.The emphasis is that Christian culture is a subset of society and not the other way around.... the area of freedom that the church needs to defend is that of not being forced to marry those whom they don't feel its right to marry..
But as I pointed out in a previous post; in the history of the church; the right to marry people is a relatively new and young cultural event and a tradition that Martin Luther wrote saying the church has no place in marrying people.
My other question now is how is the church to treat intersex people and those who have undergone Paediatric Gender Reassignment at birth... take these two examples..
http://oiiaustralia.com/media/stories/story-r/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OG1cG0UuO4
I question why we never hear the Church engaging about this issue; yet it is common within our society.
I'd much rather frame this as a debate of competing liberties, where the government is prepared to fairly and equally treat its citizens, and I think the liberty we want to preserve most is the church's liberty to criticise and not support other expressions of individualism.
Why should the government not afford equal relationship rights to same sex unions? It's very hard to do without recourse to, or perceived recourse to, the Bible. Which Australian citizens are finding increasingly less compelling. You can't say "the God you don't believe in says you can't get married." It just doesn't wash in a democracy.
I think what we can say is "our beliefs compels us to reject a definition of marriage as between members of the same sex - marriage, as God intended it is a life long, one flesh, union between man and woman" - and this is where I think we need to be positioning our arguments and our energies. It's a real problem overseas, as this link today shows).
I had a pretty comprehensive discussion on this with Mark Baddeley on my blog last year.
So I looked up that book in Google Books (Google Books is the best), & I found on page 107 there's a table on "Religion and Age at Marriage of Roman Females", which says 52% were married at age 17 or under, & 20% of all Christian Roman females were married at 14 or under.
Given the legal age of marriage is now 18, that means a majority of females in these "traditional" marriages were what we would consider minors. This illustrates my point that modern "traditional" marriages aren't very "traditional" at all, compared to biblical times. I'm not aware of anyone arguing for the "tradition" of marrying off 50%+ of Christian females at age 17 or younger. Tradition is, obviously, a relative thing, and arguments that treat tradition as absolute are bunk.
It's also worth reflecting that, using your own source, 7% of Christian females were married at 10, 11, 12 or younger, & presumably to older boys/men. Now, if we had 7% of our Christian females being married off at this age today, there would be, let's say, considerable outcry. Yet this is "traditional" marriage in biblical times.
So, it is historically true.
There is no reference in the NT that even hints at the idea that a husband ought to treat his wife as property. Instead, he is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and thus be willing to die for her if ever that were necessary.
It is interesting to note that the BCP order of marriage has the man pledge to his betrothed.
He becomes one flesh with his wife (Genesis 2), and gives all he has to her.
I think we do need to contend for the traditional definition of marriage; Christians rightly seek to influence the society in which we live for the good of society.
The point was simply that in NT times, "traditional" Christian marriage was quite different to modern times, thus debunking your argument from tradition. How similar or different it was relative to pagan marriage at the time is neither here nor there.
This is the uncomfortable truth: in NT times minors were married off (7% of females whom were 12 or under, to use Michael's source), yet the NT says nothing about it -- if anything, it encourages more marriage for these girls. (Perhaps Paul was actually concerned pagans were marrying sooner!)
From a biblical point of view, child marriage apparently wasn't worth mentioning nor condemning.
Yet same sex marriage involving <0.1% of the population of consenting adults having their relationships defined as marriage will, Michael claims, "affect all of us... ]t will further destabilise the bedrock of our social order" and we will "watch the institution of marriage disintegrate." In other words, sky = falling.
Change and progress in marriage is clearly not an inherent evil. Even the most conservative view on marriage today is massively progressive relative to biblical times, as everyone agrees child marriage = bad.
Progress can be a good thing; tradition is irrelevant. If a small number of same-sex people in our society want their existing relationship acknowledged as marriage, marriage will survive as it has through it's many and varied changes in the past.
The New Testament provides a remarkable basis for a drastic revision of the kind of marriage that was common at the time - including the disparity of ages. In 1 Cor 7, for example, Paul quite remarkably talks about the sexual rights of the wife over the husband. Each partner BELONGS TO THE OTHER - not one to the other only. As Stark shows, this is what began to happen in practice at a dramatic rate. That's what his 7% figure is showing and why the comparison is relevant. Christianity stood against polygamy, too, where it found it.
If you want to defend the modern "tradition" of Western marriages for love between adults as the gold standard for marriage, fine, but there's no reason churches should by default support such an argument.
If you wan to defend the "tradition" of biblical times, then that would be consistent, but I imagine a very difficult case to make to lower the legal marital age to historical norms.
Going in to bat for secular conservative Western culture in the name of Christian "tradition" is, however, inconsistent, and should be labeled as such. Denying a minority certain recognition from the secular state on religious grounds is also, I suggest, inconsistent and unnecessary, and given it's an inevitability, I suggest we make peace with it sooner rather than later, just as we did the decriminalization of homosexuality.
There is plentiful precedence already which shows the church doesn't recognise societal marriage laws in regards to many divorce and remarriage cases. ( I speak of the catholic (little c) and not just the Anglican denomination.
So already we see the churches mandate in regards to its acceptance and rejection of state laws and therefore you are still yet to make your case as to what grounds the church has to oppose state laws in regards to something it has no historical precedent in doing.
I'd say it's not a case of being able to discriminate, but more not being forced to conform/compromise the gospel.
Saying "free to discriminate" is just a short hand version of that.
Yes it was counter cultural and I believe that Christianity is and has to be counter cultural. And because of this belief; I don't believe we have a mandate to make laws that in reality doesn't make 2 hoots for us...rather its how we live our lives within the boundaries of the laws that makes us effective....we cannot mandate Christian living by and through societal laws....rather the change has to come about from in house change and lifestyle... and this I will argue is the format of the New Testament.
@Michael - and that is a very difficult proposition. I don't believe it's possible to come to an objective conclusion to that question. People's conclusions will reflect their view on the matter at hand.
This very much reminds me of the SRE debate - the arguments being put forward will convince no-one except the faithful.
The point Stark makes is that Christians tended to defer marriage until after puberty. The distinction he draws is between pagan consummation of pre-pubescent marriages and the trend for Christian females to more likely be (though not always) post-puberty. In the eyes of the law today, however, most were still minors, and that was my point, which is clearly supported by Stark's data.
Your appeals to tradition are baseless. If waiting to or after puberty that was the "drastic revision of the kind of marriage that was common at the time", fine, but again, we obviously don't cling to this tradition of marrying at or soon after puberty today. Instead, we've invented a new tradition in modern Western culture which distinguishes between minor and adult. We changed the definition of marriage from biblical times (minors are now excluded) which was a good thing, marriage survived ok then, and accommodating 0.1% of the population now who want to be in more committed relationships really seems to be the least we can do.
'We changed the definition of marriage from biblical times'
This simply isn't true.
There is a difference in the conventional age at which people marry. This does not constitute a definitional difference.
I'm not sure if your saying that the church needs to retain the right to define marriage within its community of believers; or if you are saying the church needs to retain its right to define marriage within society?
I totally agree with the first instance; and totally disagree with the 2nd.
If it *wasn't* a change in definition, then both these statements would be true:
i) Marriage is between opposite-sex adults.
ii) Marriage is between a male and female of almost any age.
Obviously they're not, because the definition has changed.
In fact, if you apply your definition of marriage: "But marriage is not merely something that we know about from the Christian revelation. It emerges from our very human nature" and "This is not a random definition [...] It is the meaning of marriage that emerges from almost all human civilisations across history" then the weight of history would certainly include child marriage as a part of the natural definition of marriage. In that case, our current legal and cultural definition of marriage is ahistorical.
Appeals to the natural definition of marriage across civilisations and history are wrong, because we've already revised them, outlawing child marriage and polygamy (and women as property). You have a problem with the latest revision in a long line of revisions; fine, but claiming modern Western marriage is the historical norm is the very historical revision you oppose.
In fact, when you look at the patterns of marriage in Jewish, Greek and Roman society, and the way in which Augustus (for example) enshrined marriage in his law (in 19/18 BC), you see that the difference in essence between then and now is not very large.
Luther and the early church considered defacto relationships to be married... Now we don't.
How 0.1% of the population getting married to a same-sex partner is a "complete change"; while the majority of heterosexual Christian marriages being illegal by modern definitions isn't, is quite beyond me.
@Nathan, Well, I guess the point is simply that puberty-or-thereabouts put you at marital age then, and it doesn't now -- it (rightly!) puts the groom in jail!
Sigh. The historical norms included 'child' marriage, but clearly Christians were moving away from this norm as Stark shows.
Regarding Stark, we can leave the Christian part out, as you say "This is not a random definition; nor is it one based in divine revelation (though it accords with the teachings of many religious traditions). It is the meaning of marriage that emerges from almost all human civilisations across history," but of course it's not that simple, as we've discussed, at length. If you base your definition of marriage on what "emerges from almost all human civilisations across history" then I don't think it's unreasonable to say you must accept all that comes with that, you can't just cherry pick one aspect to make a particular case for modern Western marriage in the 21st C as though it's the historical norm. That is, again, to ignore history.
Christians ought to speak to this issue in the public arena, for we are convicted that marriage is not just a good thing for believers, for for all humanity. We are concerned for the wellbeing of our fellow Australians!
Being a secular state does NOT mean that those with such convictions ought not to argue for them. On the contrary, a secular state means that those with convictions can speak to them without being persecuted by the state religion.
Philip G said:
Well, obviously not all humanity. I find the appeals to historical norms / social wellbeing / the state of heterosexual marriage to be pretty tortured. Why not just say the truth: "I disapprove of homosexuality on religious grounds, therefore I don't support gay marriage"? Seems a lot more straightforward to me. All the other specious, lets-take-the-scenic-route logic about why gay marriage is bad seems unnecessary, given the position on homosexuality is the real starting point.
With all this talk of not being too timid to make your case, then why not just tell it like it is?
Great posts #71 and #72. I think a good start in defending the sanctity of marriage is to do as mentioned earlier. Fight for the right to marry people in our Church that conform to Christian beliefs.
Because belief in the sinfulness of homosexuality isn't the reason for the opposition to re-defining marriage. Christians have been just as vocal against heterosexual plural "marriage" (in fact the United States invaded Utah to stop it because of vocal Christian opposition to the practise), "open marriages", and in general against all sexual activity taking place outside the bounds of marriage which has in Western culture always been understood as being between a man and a woman.
Calling homosexual unions "marriage" makes as much sense as calling a Muslim "christian". There may be some similarities but the two things are fundamentally different to the point where they can't be conflated.
I think homosexual unions, polyamory, golf buddy unions etc should be allowed on secular grounds but I will never call them marriages.
However I think it would be better on grounds of freedom if the government gout out of defining or managing unions at all and let the matter become contract law. I disapprove of social engineering which is what most marriage related legislation is.
For example, your post #24 is a point worth teasing out, but it gets lost when you continually throw in lines like:
(#11)
@Al, fair enough.
@Luke, I don't think you have understood the opposition many of us have to the redefinition of marriage.
If you find that hard to believe, then I'd encourage you to take the step and believe!
The "redefinition" argument is convenient I guess in that you can leave views on homosexuality aside and try instead to build your case on historical norms etc, but as I've repeatedly tried to demonstrate, those are rather flimsy cases, and that's a view much of the rest of society shares (or will soon accept imo), and much of the crying-wolf will come to be seen for what it is.
I would have thought it fair to say that marriage is already largely about romance rather than the bearing and nurturing of children (a trivial eg. might be that it is common for wedding vows to say "as long as our love shall last" in place of "till death do us part") and therefore that the institution of marriage has already been disrupted. To defend traditional marriage today wouldn't just be defending the status quo, it would be winding back the clock somewhat.
At the very least, I want to suggest that this line of argument is less about a biblical principle of marriage and more about political conservatism. If that's the case, why should we care?
If it isn't the case, why are we harping on about it?
@ Luke, I have put all my cards on the table, and it is wrong for you to impute motives to those with whom you disagree. You are essentially accusing me and others of being liars or at least deceptive, and that is out of line.
James has argued from evidence that churches have objected to changes in the definition of marriage that have nothing to do with same sex marriages.
@Duncan, the divorce rate has decreased at the moment, and marriage is still seen as a lasting commitment between two persons. Again, it is unhelpful to impute hidden reasons as to why people object to a change in definition of marriage. I am not politically conservative and I am arguing from a biblical principle of marriage.
So yes, with regards marriage, Christians are against divorce. We're against polyandry. We're against open, adulterous marriages. We're against the use of pornography. We're against absent fathers who sire children then disappear to serve the god Career.
Or to be more positive, we're for the value of men as men, and the value of women as women. And we're for esteeming that special, magical, creative thing that happens when a man loves a woman for the whole of life.
If it is true that vows are being changed from "till death us do part" to "as long as our love shall last", this is a serious and saddenning indictment on our selfish throw-away society.
Anyone who thinks that just "romance" can sustain a long-term relationship is dreaming.
I don't really like the picketing idea - why not join the party and try to actually take part in the discussion instead? If we had more people doing that - in all parties - we'd have much less need to stand on picket fences and look like we hate everything. Offer some positive alternatives.
@Stephen, "I asked one of the senior people in our church about signing a petition supporting the institution of marriage." By letting more people opt in? Oh, right, sorry... ;P
@Matt "And we're for esteeming that special, magical, creative thing that happens when a man loves a woman for the whole of life." I'm sure that will resonate deeply with secular gay people.
For all those concerned or otherwise, and are wondering what may happen, it's probably worth noting that Canada legalised same-sex marriage in 2005, and to the best of my knowledge, the institution of marriage in Canada has not -- I repeat, has not -- crumbled.
I wonder perhaps we would be btter off addressing the assumptions underlying support for same-sex marriage rather than focusing on the issue of same-sex marriage itself. What underlies support for same-sex marriage? - the idea of "fairness", the idea that religious arguments for "traditional" male-female marriage have no merit in a "secular" society ... - perhaps it would be useful reflecting on where this idea of fairness comes from, and whether secular positions are themeselves religious postions ...
If we can't mount a positive set of arguments as to why we believe what we believe it's going to be hard going ...
cheers
A couple of rebuttals...
" I could never join the Labour party because from what I have seen, it is a repugnant, morally bankrupt organisation"
It's also a democratic group and an easy way to change it, and change the tone of discussion, is to change the fabric of the group. To redeem it.
There are plenty of Christians who don't feel like they need to engage in some sort of cognitive dissonance in order to join an essentially centrist party that exists to serve the workers - but occasionally is hijacked by its fringe. I'm not even talking about getting into parliament - more having an influence at the branch level. Getting a Christian perspective on the table.
The problem is that the Christians who want to be in parliament think the way to do it is to start a party where everybody agrees with them on every point. And you end up with Family First. Politics, especially democracy, is about compromise - and this is part of the problem with a position taken on gay marriage solely on the basis of the Bible. We're not offering those who want to engage in gay marriage a compromise (at this point).
I'm not necessarily advocating joining the Labour party - I'm just suggesting that might actually be more productive than standing outside and protesting. If people want to cite Wilberforce as a political example why aren't they emulating his approach?
Were I joining a party it'd be the Libs I think, because I lean to the right. Plus, I'm a trainee minister, and I think the pulpit should be a little apolitical when it comes to party preferences (not necessarily on issues). I'm just suggesting that there's a good way to participate in the democratic process that we often ignore.
I think it's a better call than picketing. It seems more constructive and has a better chance of an impact. Abortion protestors have been picketing odd spots for years - and haven't had any really measurable impact. Imagine if we'd poured all our energy into shifting the landscape of the two major political parties so that their policies were against abortion. That's how democracy works. Isn't it?
Just to answer a few comments, I don't think what I said about marriage in my last comment is in any way a good thing; I'm just calling it as I see it. Of course, I could be wrong. (I don't mean to suggest that the vow I quoted is the norm, just using it as a trivial illustration!)
The point I want to make is that this debate seems to be focussed entirely on the implications of changing a definition in the dictionary, eg.:
I don't think the answer as to why this is a problem cuts through the "apathy of the great majority of Australians". Saying that it "will further destabilise the bedrock of our social order" would sound a bit alarmist to anyone who doesn't share a biblical worldview. Further, I don't think it's that the advocates want the wider community to think that the change will be minimal, as if they were trying to deceive; it's that they actually think the change will be minimal.
I'm not trying to make a case either way. I'm just speaking to the original question of whether or not we can improve on previous campaigns such as SRE.
Spot on! Though I would make it "when a man and a woman love each other for the whole of life".
I think this is the best line of argument we have, but that it need to be fleshed out a lot more. I am sure that, out of the various life experiences of the participants in discussion, we should be able to come up with plenty of good answers to the question: what are the various ways in which a relationship between a man and a woman has a special / magical quality that same sex relationships do not have? If we cannot, then I think we are wasting our time...
For clarity, I would also add that I don't think that "having children" is a sufficient answer, because a childless married couple are clearly still "married"....
Luke @89: Re "I'm sure that will resonate deeply with secular gay people": Secular gay people are not the relevant audience here - the relevant audience is the vast majority of the Australian population, who may or may not be secular, but who are not gay themselves.
You realise that both Roman and Greek culture of the classical era accepted homosexual activity but would have been completely astounded by the idea of homosexual "marriage" right?
The fact that Christian opposition to plural marriage caused the United States to invade a sovereign state (and commit a massive act of religious persecution for an officially secular state) shows that the Church isn't just worried about gays.
Maybe you pay too much attention to secular journalism which shouts hysterically whenever a Christian leader says something about homosexuality (which is
"dog bites man" journalism at its best) but merely mutter when other matters (especially non-sexual) are mentioned.
Unfortunately I think compromise (in the form of civil unions like the UK has) is likely to end up as a loss for Christians. Homosexuals got civil unions in the UK and now are clamouring that not calling them "marriage" and not allowing them to have religious aspects* is discriminatory.
* This in particular is bad for the Church of England as being an established church they are so legally tied to the state that they may be forced to perform civil unions/marriages if the activists get their way.
I don't see how we can function in a democracy without being prepared to offer the same freedom to participate in the democratic process of forming our society to other members of the society. Especially when our preferences are shaped by a God the rest of our society chooses either to passively ignore or actively deny.
Imagine the angst we'd feel if a bunch of pastafarians started campaigning against the eating of pasta on the grounds that we were eating their gods. That's analogous to how non-Christians feel when we try to suggest they live their lives based on the morality imposed by a God they don't believe in.
Sure, there are good secular arguments against homosexual marriage, and I think those are the ones we should be making in a secular country. Shouldn't we trust that God knows more about humans than we do and expect to be able to demonstrate that his is a more excellent way?
I think that if we want our voice to be listened to in the public sphere we need to work at keeping the freedom to voice dissenting opinions - and since we have no protected right to free speech there is actually a real danger that we're going to eventually face troubles in that area.
Why do we think people are going to listen to us telling them to base their identity in Jesus and not their sexuality if they think we hate everybody?
I just don't think fighting hard on this cause is going to resonate with people, but instead it will alienate people. I'd rather say: You're wrong the definition of marriage. God says you're wrong about the definition of marriage. We're not going to recognise your marriage. But the state should. Because you have every right to participate in the democratic process as we do. And together we celebrate that freedom - a freedom that people of the Christian faith won back when we were concerned with more than just the hope that people would hold on to some vestige of Christian morality when they'd long given up any actual belief in Christian doctrines...
The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.
The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.
The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.
The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.
The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.
The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.
The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.
The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.
The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.
The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.
The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.
The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.
We leave gay people with little room to move (if only they prayed themselves straight), and even less incentive to consider religious people as anything other than an anachronism. What a missed opportunity. Let's hope they, and society as a whole, treat us more kindly as a minority when it becomes clearer that's what we are.
I imagine in 30-40 yrs we will look back at gay marriage with the same detachment as we do to the decriminalisation of homosexuality, and wonder why people were so cold.
Here's the link: http://www.makeastand.org.au/campaign/index.php?campaign_id=39#petition
If you've been stirred to action here, I encourage you to do the same.
Now, will sydneyanglicans.net be brave enough to profile the online poll on their home page?
Early in the discussion I read that we (Christians) had 'lost the argument fo' with no-fault divorce. Yesterday I heard that we'd 'los' the abortion debate with 'the introduction of the contraceptive pill' (from an entirely different source).
We lost it all in the Garden of Eden/Evil.
Many Christians (and others) over the centuries have been keen to preserve a biblical model of relationship and family. Alas, many Christians (and others) over the centuries have also been guilty of perverting the biblical model of relationship and family.
Humanity is tainted. We see this nowhere more clearly than in relationship and family.
This is not an excuse to allow society to fall in its moral and ethical standards. It is not an excuse to display apathy instead of genuine concern but let's avoid the trap of thinking that our society was ever truly faithful to the Bible (at least not since sin became a constant part of the fabric of the world in which we live).
I accept the case laid out by Michael - the change to the fundamental definition of what constitutes marriage will have social consequences. This argument might offer secular thinkers a reason to oppose something that is easily looked upon as an issue of equality not morality.
Ultimately, definitions won't save us, nor morals. At Judgement will we be asked of debates joined/petitions signed or will we be asked, "Did you love them as I loved you?" Grace.
Random woman weighs in with possibly ridiculously obvious comment.
(I ran out of characters in my msg.)
And before the outward actions of debates/pickets/letters/campaigns etc (which are excellent) Christians should work to uphold the moral standards they are fighting for in their own life/marriage/family. That means our churches supporting Christians in this.
And I think Christians should accept rebuke that we haven't always been as faithful in this as we'd like.
I know we know and agree with all this (more of the obvious) but it's all connected, and starts with the spiritual, moves through the personal and then finds voice in the public.
Why would the world listen to our arguments otherwise?
@Michael
Well, that's a rather cynical view, and that's coming from me. What other rights that heterosexuals enjoy that gay people have attained over the last 40+ years are also just a passing fad?
I'd also be interested in hearing someone explain how marriage going from 100% male + female to 99.95% male + female will have a "measurable and visible detriment of many of our fellow citizens."
Bonus points if you can back up this claim by citing empirical data from other countries or states that have already legalized same-sex marriage -- the test cases are already out there, so have at it.
Therefore in conversations with society, I suggest we need to try to encourage thought beyond the obvious debate.......we need to learn to ask searching questions. What assumptions are being made in this debate? How do we determine what is best for society? What is truth? What are the outcomes of assuming there is no right and wrong? What are the consequences of individualism? materialism?...Is the rise of feminism in any way related to an increase/openness in homosexuality? What are the implications if the ‘family’ unit diminishes in a society? How can we build a ‘morally’ sustainable future?
Get people thinking, wondering, critiquing. Stir minds to ask ultimate questions about life.
Why not review them and see which parts of the arguments hold up and you find useful for public discourse.
National Review (US) - thoughtful essay length...
Courier Mail - opinion piece by David Van Gend, also a conservative on euthanasia, writing in the Daily Tele style.
The Australian - an opinion piece arguing against same-sex marriage, most notable because it is written by an open homosexual, who has argued for same-sex partners to get a fair deal on superannuation etc, namely Christopher Pearson.
A politely written, well reasoned argument will carry some weight. I think there is room for letters which simply make the argument from a secular point of view (e.g. making some of the points referred to above, or in the links I posted), as well as for informing the MP about the biblical view, and how it informs so many Christians, a significant part of any electorate.
1 Corinthians chapter 12 - 'Faith, Hope and Charity - but the greatest of these is Charity'.
I don't think I'm missing the point of what you and others are saying in this discussion at all.
But Douglas, David, Luke, thank you for calling us to understanding of others and to compassion, although this is by no means a call unique to you on this forum.
Now speaking to you as Bible readers and, I assume, believers, and on an Anglican forum, may I ask a couple of questions.
I note that Article 20 of the 39 says
What do you think of the wisdom of this Anglican standard?
In particular, when you remind me to love my neighbour I am reminded of the Lord Jesus. I know John 8:1-11 has been discussed by Michael here in another post recently, but I always think of Jesus approach to the woman taken in adultery. He refuses to condemn her. That's the part most moderns like to quote. But he also says, "Now go and leave your life of sin." Was our Lord being loving to her in telling her to stop her particular sin?
May I also ask what you think of the teaching of our Lord in Matthew 19:3-12? Here Jesus founds teaching on marriage back in the creation, even prior to the Mosaic Law, and states that it involves just two, namely male and female, being joined as one flesh, for life. He also acknowledges that not all can accept this and the only alternative he provides is to remain single.
In which case, what on earth is the point of giving equal social status (let alone tax dollars) to procreative and non-procreative unions alike?
That's not "ending discrimination", that's "debasing the currency". You don't have to be Christian to see that.
Much of the current battle hinges on the terms employed. We should refuse to be sucked in to fighting the opposition on their chosen semantic turf, instead staking out our own. Let's charge the political homosexual movement with lying to the world about what they're really trying to do, and (as others have pointed out) demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)
Put them right on the back foot, take the battle to them. E.g. when they ask what's the difference between straight and gay marriage, let's rather ask them back what the two have in common, and whether the dubious common factor is worth giving legal status to.
The movement is no doubt quite diverse. Whilst there would be SOME who want to legalise some of the other aberrations, it's most unfair to tar the whole movement with that broad accusation.
However I think it valid to question why homosexuality is now said to be not an aberration whereas all the others, polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc., still are.
To associate people of same-sex orientation with harmful (and criminal activities) like child abuse and incest which involve no choice and gross breaches of trust, is in my view, quite absurd and irrational.
Another thig to remeber is that we are talking about people that are not led by The Spirit and will never understand the way we think. Argue with a fool and only the fool will win.
"Much of the current battle hinges on the terms employed. We should refuse to be sucked in to fighting the opposition on their chosen semantic turf, instead staking out our own. Let's charge the political black movement with lying to the world about what they're really trying to do, and (as others have pointed out) demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)
Put them right on the back foot, take the battle to them. E.g. when they ask what's the difference between pure and mixed marriage, let's rather ask them back what the two have in common, and whether the dubious common factor is worth giving legal status to."
Black, white, gay, straight; hate is hate.
--
Promote tolerance, have your faith questioned. Promote ignorant hate, and it's a serious, "broader question." Something is deeply wrong there.
And you lot wonder what motivates minorities to fight for their rights. (Oh. but that makes them "militant"...)
@Luke - It's not hate to disagree with somebody. The broader question is "if two parties consent to engage in sexual concourse what right does the state have to legislate around it" - now the question is more complex in the cases Dan has suggested - but it's still a question of deciding why we find some relationships abhorrent but not others. You'll find there are plenty of people within the side arguing for same sex marriage already suggesting that the ideas that marriage can't exist between people who are related, and between multiple people, are archaic and based on religious beliefs so worth reconsidering. Check out the link in my comment.
"Black, white, straight, gay" - we're dealing with different categories. Your example is a category error. Dan's isn't. If we're saying the question is "should marriage be defined as one man, and one woman, for life" then the question of mixed marriage doesn't hold, unless you're suggesting that some people in this discussion don't believe black people, or white people, are people - in which case I think you may have misread the room, or the discussion...
Hateful cliches are not unique to the gay community, black men in the US for example were considered to be violent rapists without too much trouble ~30 yrs ago (consider this story for example), but it's deeply disturbing to see them defended here.
(As an aside, mixed race marriages were another tradition-busting change in recent generations that we don't regret.)
As long as certain prejudices are a given -- a starting point that cannot be questioned, but must be reasoned from -- then I think the same-sex marriage argument is always going to be difficult to accept.
It is true that homosexuality is a complicated issue with much politics behind the arguments, on all sides. We need to understand this and respond carefully and intelligently. Firstly, and perhaps most obviously, there are those who will want to use this to expose the church as ‘homopobic’ and so above all we must show compassion and intelligence in our responses. Secondly, and more subtley, our responses need to highlight that the church is not simply a 1950’s organization for the moralisation of society. Finally, characteristic of many responses to the homosexual problem is the problem of reductionism, reducing homosexuality as simply social, physical or a moral issue. Homosexuality is a complex phenomena which undoubtedly has biological roots, and social and moral categories.
As far as same sex marriage as a legal concept, we do not know, indeed I consider it doubtful that it will destroy the institution of marriage any more than heterosexual practices such as the pill, women's liberation, easy divorce laws, de facto relationships, post modern ideology, or socialism. In fact I find it difficult to maintain that extending marriage to homosexual partners will deal marriage or society a crippling blow.
Recognising that the rhetoric about "discrimination" is missing the point is very important- it is not discriminatory when relevant differences are taken into account, and the sex of the participants has always been relevant to the definition of marriage. See here for a paper I have written on the topic in which I am in furious agreement with Michael.
At some level, the only reason the state gets involved in marriage legislation is that it in some way benefits the nation for it to do so. So currently the government provides an incentive to enter "marriage" in the form of tax breaks and other benefits.
Why should the government provide such an incentive to same-sex relationships?
Because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt in online debates like this - I'm going to assume that's what Dan meant in this comment (though it could be read either way). I don't think he's saying the people lobbying for this change are all homosexual, but rather that they are lobbying on behalf of homosexuals:
The Church once taught that left-handed people were evil and as a consequence tried to force them to be right-handed with varying degrees of success. It seems that the same is true of gay/lesbian people today. It may be true that some who are same-sex attracted "become husband and wives", but that could due to various reasons, including bisexuality or what has been called "institutionalised heterosexuality" - many prisons witness "institutionalised homosexuality". There is also the question of integrity - many gay/lesbian people have married, hiding their sexual-orientation only to leave that relationship later in life. Should people live a lie?
You only have to look at the research regarding suicide amongst young men, to know that sexuality is huge factor. To claim that you can "turn away from that lifestyle" is a simplistic and ill-informed suggestion. Why would anyone choose to be discriminated against? Why would anyone choose to be hated by their family, friend and church community?
As a matter of interest, I would like to know how many people on here have gay and lesbian friends... Given some of these comments, any gay or lesbian person would run a mile - so much for being a "friends of sinners!"
I'd love to see documentation of this; sounds rather Mohammedan to me. But in any case arguments that go "The Church once taught..." cut no ice with Protestants who can point to the heroic status of Ehud whose left-handedness saved the day (Judges 3). Other than that, does the Bible say anything at all about the matter? (FWIW I'm a leftie too)
Is self-control "living a lie" then? Am I living a lie if I refuse to indulge any and every lust that occurs to me?
They do choose it, often too, if they judge that the benefits of that choice outweigh those disadvantages. Why did the early Christians choose death rather than apostatise? Why have all those Arabs immolated themselves in recent months?
So for addicts to homosexual behaviour, the perceived delight in satisfying their desires is worth the while of whatever social opprobrium they may get.
I'm certainly not against self-control, but you keep throwing straw men into the argument. We aren't talking about 'any and every lust' - we are talking about a specific issue which despite one's view on whether it is a good/moral thing, actually involves self-control ie an exclusive committed long-term relationship between two individuals of the same-sex.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to your last paragraph. There seems to be double-standard here: if it's fine to shun homosexual people because they 'choose it', then according to your standard, is it equally fine to discriminate against people who are addicts to arrogance, rudeness, unkind and self-seeking behaviour, or judging others but choose that behaviour over godly living? I don't think any of us would be left somehow...
The point you made that really hit home with me was about being "friend of sinners." I go to an inner city Anglican church, and I think we're pretty good at attracting and welcoming people who know they've stuffed things up. People with mental illnesses, addicts, self-confessed workaholics. And sinners like me, incidentally.
But I think you're right. Why is it that we're so lousy at attracting people who are gay? Not a lot at my joint. I'll think on that tonight.
I know all that, and FYI again I grew up at first in Japan and would have been made to write right-handedly except my mum got an exemption for me on the grounds I wouldn't be going right the way through their education system. They actually have plausible reasons for this, e.g. the brush strokes of their calligraphy aren't symmetrical and don't work so well if attempted with the left hand (although they let me do that too!).
As an obdurate Scripturalist of course I'd know that any claims about the moral evil of left-handedness were bogus - Article VI and all that. I'd have put up with the social taboo, knowing people have suffered much worse for things that really matter.
...
I rather think that I'm exposing where other people's arguments prove too much. See below....
Leaving aside the fact that supposedly faithful homosexual pairings are notoriously inclusive of promiscuity along the way, I would remind you that partial self-control is still sinful - James 2:10. Would you be content if I justified adultery on the grounds that I was simultaneously refusing other women I felt drawn to?
Why only "long-term" and not lifelong? What happened to "as long as ye both shall live"? Are you implicitly admitting that homosexual unions are v. unlikely to prove lifelong, and that in any case the contracting parties have no real intention of making them last the distance?
Why two? If you change other elements of marriage, viz. "lifelong" and "opposite sex", why continue to insist on the numerical element? This is no straw man - I'm asking you to be consistent. Why don't you come out and support polygamy? After all P. is further than H. from Christian marriage in one respect, but closer to it in another.
...
And re. heterosexuals who back the same arguments, I'd bet that nine times out of ten they see that as a front, or first line of defence, for their own non-homosexual sexual sins. Safety in numbers and all that.
"And re. heterosexuals who back the same arguments, I'd bet that nine times out of ten they see that as a front, or first line of defence, for their own non-homosexual sexual sins. Safety in numbers and all that"
Are you suggesting that people who express a different view to you on this issue are basically all sexual perverts? If so, then you are completely out of line.
* a public recognition of affection and commitment?
* a political and social contract to provide for the raising of the next generation?
If the former, then there's really no need for the state to be involved at all. Nor is there any robust argument for providing financial incentives to married persons over anyone else. Care for weak or disabled can be dealt with as a separate item.
However, the state might like to institute a "co-habitation contract", whereby two or more persons residing at the same address for a period of time can register this fact in order to be treated as a collective for taxation and similar purposes. But I'm not sure I see specific benefit to this.
If it's the latter, then marriage is not just a religious institution, but a vital social one. Research consistently shows that children develop best in a stable home environment with their biological parents. Thus, society and/or the state may indeed want to discriminate for marriage with special privileges to assist in raising children.
Before discussing "marriage", it pays to be clear what sort of marriage you are discussing.