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by Archbishop Peter Jensen
Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
Is there any way to defend traditional marriage?
Michael Jensen
February 21st, 2011

Things, I am afraid, are looking rather grim.

From where I sit, the case for legal recognition same-sex marriage has landed blow after unanswered blow against the traditional alternative. The campaign has appropriated for itself the powerful contemporary language of rights and equality. There have been television ads with celebrities; and articles by top journalists such as David Marr. The Greens seem determined to pursue this issue and to lever their parliamentary influence to this end.

The genius of the campaign has been the way in which it has made its case seem simple and unanswerable. It has made its appeal to middle Australia – that great, largely inert mass of people who don’t have time to think about the issue but have a keen sense of fair play. And it sounds like quite a reasonable ask: all gay and lesbian couples are asking for is the same recognition by the government that heterosexual couples receive.

What’s more, the campaign has cast those who might uphold the traditional view as bigots driven by religious zealotry, determined to impose their irrational and medieval views on the rest of the community come what may. I am fully expecting this article to lead to such accusations.

Small wonder there has been little by way of response. We in the churches have been, I think, afraid to make the public case in defence of traditional marriage. All we have offered is a stunned silence.

Partly this is because the way in which the rules of the debate have been framed by the emotive language of the campaign for change. Arguments which appeal to religious traditions and texts are given no place whatsoever. And since Christians believe what they believe about marriage on the basis of Scripture, it seems that we cannot say anything germane to the public issue.

I understand and sympathise with those who argue that actually it would be better if the churches withdrew from advocacy for legal recognition of traditional marriage. After all, we don’t believe that we are dependent on the state for the reality of marriage. We are too reliant on the state to protect these things. Perhaps we are better letting the government do what they like, and just modelling in our own communities a different kind of relationship, which we will call ‘marriage’. And perhaps too our concern over this issue distorts our witness to the community about the gospel of Jesus. It makes us too easy to categorise as people lacking grace and compassion, whatever the reality.

But marriage is not merely something that we know about from the Christian revelation. It emerges from our very human nature. And it is a divine gift to all humankind, not just to the Christian community. If we are interested in the wellbeing of the Australian community, I would suggest, we cannot sit idly by and watch the institution of marriage disintegrate.

So: it is time for those of us who would support traditional marriage to work hard at this issue. We must do much better than we have with recent public debates (I am thinking of SRE especially) in speaking to the general community with non-defensiveness, intelligence and compassion. It will certainly take courage, because of the censoriousness of the opposition.

There is an opportunity, however, because in their assumption that there is nothing that can be said against them the advocates of the revisionist campaign have majored on rhetoric and emotion and neglected to put forward a plausible case. So far, the case seems to be: ‘we want what you have. That is, we want equality with heterosexuals as far as the legal recognition of our relationships goes. Most of all we want to be able to use the word ‘marriage’.’

What no-one seems to notice is that the proposed revision of marriage laws involves … a revision of marriage. That is, they wish to change the meaning of marriage in order to have what we now call marriage. Only, if the law grants to them ‘marriage’, it won’t be the same at all. It will have become something essentially different.

As it is currently understood, marriage is not merely the expression of a love people have for each other. It is (in the words of scholars Girgis, George and Anderson of Princeton and Notre Dame Universities) “a comprehensive union of two sexually complementary persons who seal (consummate or complete) their relationship by the generative act—by the kind of activity that is by its nature fulfilled by the conception of a child.”

This is not a random definition; nor is it one based in divine revelation (though it accords with the teachings of many religious traditions). It is the meaning of marriage that emerges from almost all human civilisations across history; and which reflects who human beings are in their very bodily selves. There is a union which only persons of complementary sex can share. Only this two can become ‘one flesh’ – and that is not some spooky, mystical phrase: it is a matter of tangible reality.

Were same-sex relationships to be admitted as ‘marriages’, this essence of marriage itself would have to be held to be something other than what it is. This is what some pro-revision advocates themselves think. Andrew Sullivan, a leading academic advocate for same-sex marriage, writes that as far as he is concerned, marriage has become“primarily a way in which twoadults affirm their emotional commitment to one another.” Brandeis University’s E.J Graff thinks that recognition of same-sex unions would change marriage so that it would “ever after stand for sexual choice, forcutting the link between sex and diapers.”

Here’s the thing. The advocates of same-sex marriage are counting for success on that great staple of Australian politics - the apathy of the great majority of Australians. It sounds to most of us as if recognizing same-sex marriage won’t affect or harm most of us at all. It sounds as if denying gay and lesbian couples this ‘right’ is petty and discriminatory.

But that doesn’t reckon with the fact that the way in which marriage is described will be completely changed. It will be something else. The distinctive orientation of marriage towards the bearing and nurture of children is to be dissolved. In its stead, we have a view of marriage which places sexual choice and emotional commitment at the centre. Under this definition (which is rarely articulated), there is of course no reason why marriage rights should not be granted to polyamorous relationships, or indeed any other type of sexual relationship. Indeed, it is unclear even why sexual activity should be the focal point – why couldn’t long term housemates or inseparable golfing partners likewise seek recognition at law for their relationships?

What is missing from the revisionist case is a clear and reasonable definition of marriage as they would like to see it – one that is deeper than just ‘choice’ or ‘emotions’. This is because for the most part advocates want the wider community to think that the change will be minimal in impact.

It won’t be.  The definition of marriage is changed, that will affect all of us. It will further destabilise the bedrock of our social order, as the liberalisation of divorce laws has tended to do – to the measurable and visible detriment of many of our fellow citizens.

Marriage is a public, not a private matter – which, by advocating so strongly for change, revisionists themselves tacitly acknowledge. It is not simply therefore a matter of allowing a freedom for others. It is a matter of determining what best promotes the flourishing of Australia’s citizens.

James Ramsay    21 February 2011 6:13pm
You have already lost the argument if you call same-sex unions "marriage". If you do that then in the secular world you don't have a leg to stand on (or have to rely on science which is either mixed or not very supportive of our case) and it just looks like bigotry.

Also people shouldn't think the attack on the definition of marriage co-incidental. The groups that have been pushing it for all these years are quite open about being anti-monogamy and promoting "open marriages*".

And yes the knots same-sex union advocates get into in trying to explain why same-sex unions should be called "marriage" but polygamy/gyny and golf partners getting "married" shouldn't be allowed is very funny.

In my opinion Christians lost the fight for traditional marriage when no-fault divorces came about.

* There was a quite damning survey of the level of infidelity in gay men in "monogamous" relationships in America which was quietly brushed under the carpet.

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Jodie McNeill    21 February 2011 6:42pm
It is as ridiculous to categorise a same-sex union as 'marriage' as it is to categorise soy milk as 'dairy'.

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Craig Schwarze    21 February 2011 7:30pm
Michael, I fear your counter argument is too subtle and philosophical to get much traction in the wider community. I'll admit that I'm one of those who think this is not a hill worth dying on.

Think about how much energy would be involved in waging a successful "campaign". Is that really where we want to spend our time? Is that really what we want our sound-bite message to be in the media?

I simply cannot imagine the apostle Paul waging a political campaign to reform some part of Roman law - it just didn't seem to be on his radar screen. I would much rather see us engage in "Connect 11" this year...

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Michael Jensen    21 February 2011 7:38pm
You and I live in the inner west, don't forget Craig! Things look pretty secular from where we sit!

The calculation we have to make, Craig, is to what degree Australian society - and individuals within it - will be damaged by this muted change. Remember, we are not waging a campaign to reform anything - but merely to maintain the status quo because we think (if we do) that is actually a more just outcome.

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Michael Jensen    21 February 2011 7:43pm
Just a note to would-be contributers:

it is perhaps unlikely that a person supporting same-sex marriage will join our discussion and hold us accountable, and that is a pity. There is certainly a lot that is up for discussion, and it isn't a simple case at all. The debate has already been characterised by a lot of emotional rhetoric and blather - and some of the comments of Christian groups don't help at all.
It may be easy to slip into off-hand quips which could be read as derogatory of gays and lesbians.

So, let us show the utmost care in the tone of our comments.

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Robert James Elliott    21 February 2011 8:53pm
Defenders of the marriage institution need to form a united body (across denominations) to fight this one out until the end, marshalling all the evidence and arguments against gay unions being recognised as "marriage". The campaign is too fragmented and needs to be professionalised and, as well, needs to be a day-in, day-out campaign. Too often churches periodically address the issue then go on to another topic like refugees, environment or whatever, which are nowhere near as important as this. In the USA, the successful state campaigns against gay marriage was a coalition of Catholics, Protestants and (especially) Mormons, which fought the gay "marriage" advocates everywhere. We need that here. We are too weak and too desparate to be loved by the press. We need to speak plainly and make clear that whatever gay relationships are they are not and can never be marriage.

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Craig Bennett    21 February 2011 8:57pm
When it comes to the topic of "Traditional Marriage" the question I ask is whose tradition are we talking about? This then raises the question about what do we mean by "Marriage"

Martin Luther wrote that the priests had no right to be involved in the marrying business. It was both a private and state matter; not a church matter. His stance was against the Roman Catholic instituting the ordinance in 1550 that for a couple to be recognised as being "married" the priest must preside with two witnesses. Of course a tax / donation was mandated also.

Under the reformation Luther discontinued the practice...though John Calvin continued with it. The marriage act was again introduced in the House of Lords in 1750's where by marriage had to be performed by a priest. Historically those whom we would consider to be in a defacto relationship and living in sin...were considered to be actually married.

Craig S raises an interesting point. The Apostle Paul never spoke against the then current laws regarding marriage; he did however make a point of teaching the church how they should live within those laws. Polygamy for instance was both legal in Roman law and very much part of the Jewish cultural practice...

I see no precedent in the Scriptures where by the church has a mandate to compel society to change its laws to suit the church; rather I see the church being instructed as to how they should live within the confines of the laws...

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Ron J Bennett    21 February 2011 9:35pm
I would have to agree with James in one aspect. The depredation of marriage came about in a very subtle manner.

Where it started exactly I cannot say but “no fault” divorces can’t be far off the mark. Something else that I think needs to be considered is the every churches stance on Homosexualality, not just in Australia but world wide.

My question is: How do you expect to make a stance on marriage regarding same sex when the Churches stance, regardless of denomination is not consistent?

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Chris Little    21 February 2011 9:44pm
@Craig S

I know what you mean about which battles to join, but there are a couple of reasons not to jump out of this one too soon.

Firstly, as Michael mentioned, love for neighbour. A change will damage people.

Secondly, and looking ahead, for freedom to practice Christian marriage. It seems that social laws in the last little while move rapidly from 'permission' to 'compulsion.' I would expect that pressure will soon come to insist that I (and other celebrants) am forbidden to decline to marry same-sex couples.

I don't think these are knock-down reasons to throw all effort into it, but they move me to get involved in some way.

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Philip Charles Gerber    21 February 2011 10:58pm
The following clip of Ex High Court Justice Kirby is worth watching to get a sense of the argument from the other side. In my opinion Justice Kirby is uncharacteristically sloppy in his advocacy here, but very strong on oratory and rhetoric.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26c56A9-ac0&h=fd639

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Luke Stevens    21 February 2011 11:35pm
Wow. It's pretty clear that if you have to get that defensive, that quickly (martyr by the 3rd para, tar opponents as "revisionists") you don't have a leg to stand on.

Some many problems; where to start?

By "traditional" marriage you mean the modern invention of marriages for love, right? Of course, I assume you want to defend biblical, NT marriage? So let's start agitating for the marriage of minors and laws that make a woman a man's property through marriage again! Yeah! Wait, that's not the tradition you want to defend? You wouldn't be... revising the history of Christian, biblical, "traditional" marriage, would you?

What other important traditions should we look to defend? Maybe we should make homosexuality illegal again? It affects all of us!

Or should we continue the long standing heterosexual tradition of turning a blind to the damage we've wrought on the "institution" of marriage, and instead turn all our attention to the, what, literally 0.1% (less?) of gay people who want to marry because somehow "that will affect all of us"? If it will be to the "measurable ... detriment of many of our fellow citizens" -- measured how? Really, how will you measure this detriment?

"It sounds to most of us as if recognizing same-sex marriage won’t affect or harm most of us at all.

"It sounds as if denying gay and lesbian couples this ‘right’ is petty and discriminatory."

Hysterics notwithstanding, it really, really does.

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David McKay    21 February 2011 11:48pm
When people are able to vote anonymously, a high proportion of them vote against same-sex marriage in surveys I've seen. But I admit that these online surveys are not scientifically calibrated and could be skewed by the proportion of people who feel the need to vote NO.

If marriage is to be between any consenting folk who love one another, as the argument seems to be being presented, shouldn't the marriage act also be changed to allow polygamy and incest?

If this were a referendum question, I think most Australians would vote NO.

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Michael Jensen    21 February 2011 11:59pm
Luke - most of what you say about my piece is inaccurate. 'Revisionist' is not pejorative, for starters.

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DavidHohne    22 February 2011 12:05am
@ Craig S

At the risk of catastrophising, if Christians meekly withdraw from engaging in a debate like this there is no point in Connect 11 or any other connect. MPJ is correct, we are not trying to change the law but uphold an existing and ordinary manner of description for the life-long union of two sexually complementary human beings that ordinarily results in the generation of new human life.

Even if the institution of marriage mentioned above is only "true" because we have defined it to be so, it is nevertheless "true." To change that definition is exactly the same as saying it is only a matter of antiquated thinking to insist that 1 + 1 = 2.

More importantly, in what sense will we connect with any community when in the face of high rhetoric and emotional manipulation we are told that God lovingly welcomes all human creatures and rejoices in all the multiplicity of their choices and ways of living in the world. We will have no credibility when we start saying, "The definition of sin is this...or the truth about Jesus is that," because we have abandoned the gift of coherent speech that the Gospel gives us in the first place.

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Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 12:13am
@David M, even if that were true, it would probably have also been true if we were discussing the decriminalization of homosexuality, and yet I don't hear too many people advocating for those laws to return now.

@Michael, I think it is accurate, I think my arguments about "traditional" Christian NT marriage are very persuasive, and to be honest I think you have a bad habit of saying "nu-uh" without engaging with the substance of counter-arguments. Do you or don't you support "traditional" NT marriage, i.e. marrying off 12 year olds, and treating women as property?

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Craig Bennett    22 February 2011 12:24am
One of the issues I have with this subject is in how we theologise our right to define societal law?
Perhaps I am oversimplifying things; but it does appear that Paul defines Christianity as a subset of society and not society being a subset of Christianity.

Traditionally and historically within some cultures homosexual marriage has been an acceptable practice; the question has to be asked about "Whose tradition" is threatened. Are the lives of children raised by Gay couples really going to be threatened any more then they are by those raised by Heterosexual couples? Are kids of married parents any safer then the kids from unmarried parents or vice versa?...what about the kids from single parents.

In all the talk and rhetoric about the evils of allowing gay marriage; I have heard little about the emphasis of Scripture calling the church to teach its self the way they should live within society....and I think this is the gist of what Luke is saying.

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Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 12:33am
That is a very good point Craig.

Imagine the shoe was on the other foot -- say we were a Christian minority in an Islamic country, and (let's say) the Islamic elders were advocating that we should not be able to get married because (a) they think Christianity is wrong, and (b) they are worried the state will force them to Christian-marry these infidels (as per Chris L's objection). We would be up in arms about this, and it would be right of us to say the religious leaders of the day should not legislate their religion through a secular state's laws. Here, however...

But I'm also saying any arguments from Christian "tradition" are quickly and easily disproved :)

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 12:37am
What do the "majority" think? Well the fact that for the moment the two main political groupings ALP & Lib/Nat have a policy of not re-defining marriage does, in my opinion, reflect the view of the "majority". The advocates for gay marriage do want to change the majority view but it seems they'll happily take a re-definition of marriage, if they can get it, and run, without majority backing. The strongest argument, equallity/fairness - I want what you've got, will be pushed without any regard to re-definition. The "fair-go" Aussie will find it hard to resist. Teasing out what re-definition means will mostly be ignored.

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 12:49am
Luke seems to assume that the arguments for exclusivly male/female marriage are only Christian. In my opinion, as per previous post, the "majority", of all faiths and none, still hold the view that marriage should be for male/female. I submit that the only reason for any government rules re marriage is for the protection of women (especially when child-bearing, caring) and children. Otherwise it is arguable that government laws should have nothing at all to say about any consensual adult relationships, apart from criminal acts such as assault, fraud, coercion etc.

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Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 1:17am
Sure, most faiths also understood marriage to be a property transaction.

The problem is "traditional" marriage has already been redefined by heterosexuals -- couples marry for love first, children second. Most people would regard a committed relationship between two consenting adults as an intrinsically good thing. For example, if a Christian couple is childless, most (I hope!) wouldn't consider the marriage to be flawed or less "real" than any other. Claims that the "revisionists" wanting to "redefine" marriage are inherently in the wrong is an obvious absurdity.

Given this reality of marriage in modern Western society, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that homosexual people would look at this and say "Hey, we're also two adults in a committed, loving relationship, why can't we enjoy the same recognition and rights as everyone else?"

Hysterical cries that accepting this already-existing relationship (ala Justice Kirby) as a marriage will somehow hurt me, Joe Heterosexual, are petty indeed.

I'm sure Justice Kirby, for example, would be surprised to hear that if he were to have his long-term relationship acknowledge by the state as a marriage, it would be contra "what best promotes the flourishing of Australia’s citizens," as Michael puts it.

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Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 1:38am
Also, can I just say I find this part of Michael's piece troubling indeed:

What’s more, the campaign has cast those who might uphold the traditional view as bigots driven by religious zealotry, determined to impose their irrational and medieval views on the rest of the community come what may. I am fully expecting this article to lead to such accusations.

Small wonder there has been little by way of response. We in the churches have been, I think, afraid to make the public case in defence of traditional marriage. All we have offered is a stunned silence.


If we start buying into victimhood and bracing ourselves for these terrible consequences Michael "fully expects" just because we're on the wrong side of the debate, then there really isn't much hope for considered, thoughtful decision making. In this case, insisting that the church has somehow been intimidated into silence might mask the real, simper truth: that there really isn't much to say.

Tradition isn't an argument -- who's tradition? Harm isn't an argument -- what harm? Legislating for specifically Christian morality isn't an argument -- we live in a secular society. Here's your chance to speak freely. Where's your compelling argument?

I get the feeling the emperor simply has no clothes on this one.

(Edit: The idea we've been "silenced" is also odd when the ACL, for example, quizzes the party leaders of the day on the issue. Plus, the major parties currently share the prevailing conservative view. How can you be a silenced minority when you have the support of the major parties?)

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 1:49am
Luke, you are correct about the practical re-definition that has already occurred in Aus and western society. Anecdotally it seems that hetrosexual couples mostly "live together" first and only think about marriage when kids are being considered or have come. But to argue that is a good thing, which you don't, is unsustainable. The real losers in this current walk-in/walkout/ no commitment approach to relationships are women. I know of many young Christian couples who have remained firm against the trend and married first. They are essentially almost an oddity in society now, but a great witness to fidelity and wholeness.

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 1:54am
Michael's "bigots driven by religious zealotry, determined to impose their irrational and medieval views on the rest of the community come what may" certainly seems to be a fair representation of Justice Kirby's (the other Michael) view about protestant Christians and the Pope with whom he disagrees. Watch the film clip mentioned above.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26c56A9-ac0&h=fd639

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Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 2:08am
@Philip, right, but from a secular point of view, when gay people see the heterosexual norm of "current walk-in/walkout/ no commitment approach to relationships" and see that marriage is available there, it must be pretty galling to have those same people turn around and say "Sorry, no marriage for you," especially when the homosexual folk are trying to establish relationships with *more* commitment! That is, they're trying to move from the "no commitment" norm you dislike to one of greater commitment, and yet we say "Sorry, that's harmful to me/society"!

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Robert James Elliott    22 February 2011 2:13am
I think Christians should take this issue head-on as no culture - Christian, Jewish, Islamic, pagan whatever - has ever treated marriage as a same-sex institution. Quite the opposite. Gay "marriage" is completely at odds with humanity's entire history. To assert a right based on fairness seems difficult when for thousands of years, we have somehow survived without gay marriage.

Again, Christians need to make affirmative arguments for normal, hetero, traditional marriage. They need to be made aggressively and repeatedly. Most voters deep down are tolerant of gays but feel that the marriage concept is not appropriate, but social/cultural norms mean they need to conform to PC.

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Matt Busby Andrews    22 February 2011 2:20am
Michael, good to see you at the frontline. We should have all out best communicators here - if we are silent, we have failed our prophetic duty to the culture. Whether we win or not.

But our our enemy has a number of very good points. Especially when they say, "Hang on, if you're going to argue from principles, then don't you want to turn the clock back on all sexual ethics stuff?"

And our answer has to be, "Yes. Yes we do. Because the Sexual Revolution has bought women and children nothing but destruction."

The sexual revolution bought no-fault divorce. The result in this country has been every year 50,000 children are afflicted with emotional problems that lead to higher levels of educational drop out, poverty and depression.

The sexual revolution bought the proliferation of porn. The result is that today two-thirds of men are porn users, with long term effects to their brains, and, unsurprisingly, relationship damage. US stats show that most divorce cases feature at least one partner with a porn problem.

The sexual revolution bought of state-approved prostitution, where councils in this state are required by law to provide space for brothels. Ignoring the rebrand by the industry to "sex-workers", these women are almost universally victims – of violence, rape and disease.

Same-sex marriage is the next turn in the revolution that has crippled our civilization. Only this time it's going to damage the very value of gender itself.

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 2:20am
Sure Luke, I understand, and you have probably hit on the nub of the issue I think. Interestingly, Justice Kirby, in a 41 year long-term gay relationship, would not opt for marriage, he says. The gay-rights movement has always seen gay marriage as an important ultimate goal in their campaign to "normalise" homosexuality and are mainly using it in that broader campaign, in my opinion. The pros and cons of the importance of marriage to society doesn't seem to enter into their considerations.

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David McKay    22 February 2011 2:21am
Agree with you Robert, except for the "aggressively"

What about "forthrightly?"

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Matt Busby Andrews    22 February 2011 2:22am
How many of you brave posters will join me at the picket for Labor Party conference?

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Robert James Elliott    22 February 2011 2:27am
Aggressive in the sense of zeal and in the sense of a forward posture. Christians are too wimpish on cultural issues, wanting to be liked or well thought of by the ABC or the Herald. We Christians are too worldly in the worst sense.

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Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 2:31am
So Michael says those who support gay marriage are "revisionists", and Matt says we are "the enemy". Hm.

But our our enemy has a number of very good points. Especially when they say, "Hang on, if you're going to argue from principles, then don't you want to turn the clock back on all sexual ethics stuff?"

And our answer has to be, "Yes. Yes we do. Because the Sexual Revolution has bought women and children nothing but destruction."


Why stop there, Matt? Why not go back to NT norms of marrying minors and treating women as property?

The bible wasn't written in 1950.

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 2:44am
Ok Luke I give up. Where exactly in the New Testament is "marrying minors and treating women as property" regarded as a norm or endorsed? "Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" and "husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies" doesn't sound like treating her as property to me.

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Peter Alan Newing    22 February 2011 2:52am
Marriage as a social institution down through the ages has proven to be the most effective way of protecting and nurturing the most vulnerable group in our society - our children. Same Sex marriage is primarily about transforming marriage to be a social institution that satisfies the appetites of adults – and not about the rights of children. It seems to me that same sex marriage proponents spend little or no time discussing the rights of children – it’s all about the “rights” of adults.

I think most “middle Australians” – Christian or not - would agree that every Aussie kid has a right to a mum and dad – that every Aussie kid has a right to enjoy the security of a stable family where they feel loved and nurtured.

Changing the definition of marriage erodes marriage as a “safe haven” for children.

I believe the scriptures teach that we are to defend and speak up for the weak and oppressed in society. I think Christian have no option but to enter the debate and make the “rational” case for Aussie kids.

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 3:18am
"The bible wasn't written in 1950." But for many it hasn't been read since then.

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Nick Colyer    22 February 2011 3:21am
Haven't had time to read everyone's posts, so apologies if this has already been said...

I doubt that many people in 'middle Australia' would deny that there are fundamental differences between the sexes. It follows, then, that a union of a man and a woman is a fundamentally different thing from a union between two men or two women. One is a union of difference, the other of sameness. Therefore, to call them both marriage would be a mistake!

Surely this is the kind of case we should be making in the public sphere?

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Michael Jensen    22 February 2011 3:33am
@Luke - frankly I have to say your own tendency is just to repeat yourself more loudly. Your argument about Christian marriage as 'marrying minors and treating women as property' is just not historical true, not even remotely, as Rodney Stark's book on The Rise of Christianity amply demonstrates. As I said, 'revisionist' is not meant as a derogatory or pejorative term - it is simply descriptive. Also, the weakness of contemporary marriage is not an argument for a change in the definition of marriage.

Two things: I offer this piece fully recognising that the state's recognition of marriage is not what makes a marriage. I am well aware of the church's tendency to be defensive of its own rights at the cost of its mission to the society. The sky will not fall in if same-sex marriages go ahead. But marriage will not be the same in Australia - both sides are actually agreed on this.

Second: human sexuality and its due expression IS important. Actually, everyone thinks that it is on both sides of this argument. No one is more sex-obsessed than anyone else. But in the context of the terrible events in Libya and Christchurch today, these are fairly small bickies.

Also: I think Michael Kirby is a remarkable human being, as far as human beings go.

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Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 3:43am
Ditto on Justice Michael Kirby. A great man and a great jurist. No disrespect intended in referring to his views on this matter, with which I respectfully disagree.

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Craig Bennett    22 February 2011 3:52am
@ Phillip. You will have to agree that your argument about how Christians are to treat their wives from Ephesians is an excellent example of the point that I was making about the church having the mandate to teach itself how to live within the boundaries of societal law.

A popular male Jewish prayer is "I thank you God that I am not a Gentile, Female or slave" Certainly the is a historical argument that wives were and still are in many cultures considered to be a commodity.

YES its true that homosexual marriage has no place within Christian culture.The emphasis is that Christian culture is a subset of society and not the other way around.... the area of freedom that the church needs to defend is that of not being forced to marry those whom they don't feel its right to marry..

But as I pointed out in a previous post; in the history of the church; the right to marry people is a relatively new and young cultural event and a tradition that Martin Luther wrote saying the church has no place in marrying people.

My other question now is how is the church to treat intersex people and those who have undergone Paediatric Gender Reassignment at birth... take these two examples..

http://oiiaustralia.com/media/stories/story-r/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OG1cG0UuO4

I question why we never hear the Church engaging about this issue; yet it is common within our society.

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Nathan Campbell    22 February 2011 3:59am
I'm much more interested in fighting battles that are winnable than rearguard battles that we've already lost, somebody above mentioned the need to preserve our freedom to discriminate, to refuse to conduct gay marriage ceremonies.

I'd much rather frame this as a debate of competing liberties, where the government is prepared to fairly and equally treat its citizens, and I think the liberty we want to preserve most is the church's liberty to criticise and not support other expressions of individualism.

Why should the government not afford equal relationship rights to same sex unions? It's very hard to do without recourse to, or perceived recourse to, the Bible. Which Australian citizens are finding increasingly less compelling. You can't say "the God you don't believe in says you can't get married." It just doesn't wash in a democracy.

I think what we can say is "our beliefs compels us to reject a definition of marriage as between members of the same sex - marriage, as God intended it is a life long, one flesh, union between man and woman" - and this is where I think we need to be positioning our arguments and our energies. It's a real problem overseas, as this link today shows).

I had a pretty comprehensive discussion on this with Mark Baddeley on my blog last year.

#40 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    22 February 2011 4:04am
@Nick - you'd be surprised how many people want to deny differences between genders - even physically - see the internet furore surrounding an Iowan wrestler's decision not to fight against a girl in a competition this week... maybe they're not middle Australia, but middle Australia tends to follow the academic/pop culture spheres of influence by an increasingly small lag time.

#41 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 4:15am
Michael, you say: "Your argument about Christian marriage as 'marrying minors and treating women as property' is just not historical true, not even remotely, as Rodney Stark's book on The Rise of Christianity amply demonstrates."

So I looked up that book in Google Books (Google Books is the best), & I found on page 107 there's a table on "Religion and Age at Marriage of Roman Females", which says 52% were married at age 17 or under, & 20% of all Christian Roman females were married at 14 or under.

Given the legal age of marriage is now 18, that means a majority of females in these "traditional" marriages were what we would consider minors. This illustrates my point that modern "traditional" marriages aren't very "traditional" at all, compared to biblical times. I'm not aware of anyone arguing for the "tradition" of marrying off 50%+ of Christian females at age 17 or younger. Tradition is, obviously, a relative thing, and arguments that treat tradition as absolute are bunk.

It's also worth reflecting that, using your own source, 7% of Christian females were married at 10, 11, 12 or younger, & presumably to older boys/men. Now, if we had 7% of our Christian females being married off at this age today, there would be, let's say, considerable outcry. Yet this is "traditional" marriage in biblical times.

So, it is historically true.

#42 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    22 February 2011 4:34am
@Luke - Stark's argument (and his table) shows how markedly Christian marriage differed from the pattern of pagan marriages. That's the point. It wasn't just simply a repeat of the traditional pagan pattern. You made the claim that NT marriage was the same as the pagan/Roman model. Not true.

#43 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    22 February 2011 4:47am
@Nathan - thanks for that. Personally I find the rhetoric of 'defending our right to discriminate' quite objectionable. It makes us sound like a group that is asking for particular privileges rather than a group that is seeking to serve. I acknowledge the problem this causes for us of course.

#44 of 175 top
Philip Griffin    22 February 2011 4:58am
Luke, with Michael I have to disagree with your assertion that Christian marriage is 'marrying minors and
treating women as property
.

There is no reference in the NT that even hints at the idea that a husband ought to treat his wife as property. Instead, he is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and thus be willing to die for her if ever that were necessary.

It is interesting to note that the BCP order of marriage has the man pledge to his betrothed.

With my worldly goods I thee endow.

He becomes one flesh with his wife (Genesis 2), and gives all he has to her.

I think we do need to contend for the traditional definition of marriage; Christians rightly seek to influence the society in which we live for the good of society.

#45 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 5:08am
@Michael, where, exactly, did I make that claim?!

The point was simply that in NT times, "traditional" Christian marriage was quite different to modern times, thus debunking your argument from tradition. How similar or different it was relative to pagan marriage at the time is neither here nor there.

This is the uncomfortable truth: in NT times minors were married off (7% of females whom were 12 or under, to use Michael's source), yet the NT says nothing about it -- if anything, it encourages more marriage for these girls. (Perhaps Paul was actually concerned pagans were marrying sooner!)

From a biblical point of view, child marriage apparently wasn't worth mentioning nor condemning.

Yet same sex marriage involving <0.1% of the population of consenting adults having their relationships defined as marriage will, Michael claims, "affect all of us... ]t will further destabilise the bedrock of our social order" and we will "watch the institution of marriage disintegrate." In other words, sky = falling.

Change and progress in marriage is clearly not an inherent evil. Even the most conservative view on marriage today is massively progressive relative to biblical times, as everyone agrees child marriage = bad.

Progress can be a good thing; tradition is irrelevant. If a small number of same-sex people in our society want their existing relationship acknowledged as marriage, marriage will survive as it has through it's many and varied changes in the past.

#46 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 5:13am
@Philip G's, women being property was assumed -- the sin of adultery was, in part, stealing another man's property as much as it was about unfaithfulness. However, we've conveniently forgotten much of anything about the culture of NT times and now assume our own modern culture, which is rather revisionist, imo :)

#47 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    22 February 2011 5:20am
'thus debunking your argument from tradition' ... well, actually, not understanding my argument from tradition would be more accurate.

The New Testament provides a remarkable basis for a drastic revision of the kind of marriage that was common at the time - including the disparity of ages. In 1 Cor 7, for example, Paul quite remarkably talks about the sexual rights of the wife over the husband. Each partner BELONGS TO THE OTHER - not one to the other only. As Stark shows, this is what began to happen in practice at a dramatic rate. That's what his 7% figure is showing and why the comparison is relevant. Christianity stood against polygamy, too, where it found it.

#48 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 5:40am
First I was historically wrong, then I wasn't; then I was making some claim about pagan vs Christian marriage, then I wasn't; now I'm misunderstanding your argument, but, what argument? You can't escape the fact that more than 50% of Christian girls were married at 17 or under, i.e., as minors. We have made progress since then to change marriage so it reflects modern cultural norms, i.e. the minimum legal age is 18. Marriage did not crumble because traditions were superseded.

If you want to defend the modern "tradition" of Western marriages for love between adults as the gold standard for marriage, fine, but there's no reason churches should by default support such an argument.

If you wan to defend the "tradition" of biblical times, then that would be consistent, but I imagine a very difficult case to make to lower the legal marital age to historical norms.

Going in to bat for secular conservative Western culture in the name of Christian "tradition" is, however, inconsistent, and should be labeled as such. Denying a minority certain recognition from the secular state on religious grounds is also, I suggest, inconsistent and unnecessary, and given it's an inevitability, I suggest we make peace with it sooner rather than later, just as we did the decriminalization of homosexuality.

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Craig Bennett    22 February 2011 5:40am
@ Michael, Your point and reference to Stark; shows that the church stood against polygamy within the church and not outside the church. You are yet to show any Biblical precedence for the church to stand against societal marriage laws within the greater society.

There is plentiful precedence already which shows the church doesn't recognise societal marriage laws in regards to many divorce and remarriage cases. ( I speak of the catholic (little c) and not just the Anglican denomination.

So already we see the churches mandate in regards to its acceptance and rejection of state laws and therefore you are still yet to make your case as to what grounds the church has to oppose state laws in regards to something it has no historical precedent in doing.

#50 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    22 February 2011 5:48am
Your lower legal age argument isn't established though. You were wrong, and remained wrong - you misinterpreted the data, which actually supported my point.

#51 of 175 top
Philip Charles Gerber    22 February 2011 6:09am
Craig, I believe "Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" and "husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies" was the Apostle Paul's argument not mine. Though it certainly makes sense and was no doubt as counter-cultural then as it is in today's "me" generation.

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Nathan Campbell    22 February 2011 6:57am
@Michael - I'd much rather frame it as defending our right to not conform to mainstream society, and our right to speak freely against things - because I think ultimately that protects our ability to freely proclaim the gospel.

I'd say it's not a case of being able to discriminate, but more not being forced to conform/compromise the gospel.

Saying "free to discriminate" is just a short hand version of that.

#53 of 175 top
Craig Bennett    22 February 2011 6:57am
@Phillip. I totally agree with Paul's teaching, The point is is he preaching to the church / believers or is he preaching to none believers? I will make the claim that Paul is preaching to believers as to how they will live.

Yes it was counter cultural and I believe that Christianity is and has to be counter cultural. And because of this belief; I don't believe we have a mandate to make laws that in reality doesn't make 2 hoots for us...rather its how we live our lives within the boundaries of the laws that makes us effective....we cannot mandate Christian living by and through societal laws....rather the change has to come about from in house change and lifestyle... and this I will argue is the format of the New Testament.

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Matt Busby Andrews    22 February 2011 7:17am
@Craig guess it was a mistake when Wilberforce campaigned against slavery. He should have just concentrated on the church not having slaves.

#55 of 175 top
Craig Bennett    22 February 2011 7:23am
@Matt. Good point. Certainly Wilberforce was a Christian. But in no way was he backed by the church and you can't say it was a Christian movement that changed slavery. Rather I would say that Wilberforce was part of the civil rights movement....which by the way was the same movement that pushed for equality of the vote and equality of both race and gender...which the church actually historically stood against...on both as a gender and racial issue.

#56 of 175 top
Craig Schwarze    22 February 2011 7:40am
"The calculation we have to make, Craig, is to what degree Australian society - and individuals within it - will be damaged by this muted change."

@Michael - and that is a very difficult proposition. I don't believe it's possible to come to an objective conclusion to that question. People's conclusions will reflect their view on the matter at hand.

This very much reminds me of the SRE debate - the arguments being put forward will convince no-one except the faithful.

#57 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    22 February 2011 7:59am
@Michael
Your lower legal age argument isn't established though. You were wrong, and remained wrong - you misinterpreted the data, which actually supported my point.


The point Stark makes is that Christians tended to defer marriage until after puberty. The distinction he draws is between pagan consummation of pre-pubescent marriages and the trend for Christian females to more likely be (though not always) post-puberty. In the eyes of the law today, however, most were still minors, and that was my point, which is clearly supported by Stark's data.

Your appeals to tradition are baseless. If waiting to or after puberty that was the "drastic revision of the kind of marriage that was common at the time", fine, but again, we obviously don't cling to this tradition of marrying at or soon after puberty today. Instead, we've invented a new tradition in modern Western culture which distinguishes between minor and adult. We changed the definition of marriage from biblical times (minors are now excluded) which was a good thing, marriage survived ok then, and accommodating 0.1% of the population now who want to be in more committed relationships really seems to be the least we can do.

#58 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    22 February 2011 5:57pm
Luke, you can't just keep repeating yourself.

'We changed the definition of marriage from biblical times'

This simply isn't true.

There is a difference in the conventional age at which people marry. This does not constitute a definitional difference.

#59 of 175 top
Craig Schwarze    22 February 2011 7:33pm
I think Nathan's right - we need to make sure the church retains the right to define marriage in accordance with our religious views. I think this will be about the best we are able to obtain when the current debate has run it's course (which will take years, I think).

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Craig Bennett    22 February 2011 8:37pm
@Craig S.
I'm not sure if your saying that the church needs to retain the right to define marriage within its community of believers; or if you are saying the church needs to retain its right to define marriage within society?

I totally agree with the first instance; and totally disagree with the 2nd.

#61 of 175 top
Douglas Coles    23 February 2011 12:27am
Do we also go on to hold that 'only those marriages solemnised in church by a priest/presbyter' should valid marriages in they eyes of christians? This would seem to be a reasonable corollary to most of the views expressed here - with the exception of Luke's, which to me appear to reflect the 'middle ground' which Anglicanism has traditionally trodden until recent times. It would seem that sexuality is the base issue not the quasi-sacramental traditional view of marriage.

#62 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 12:44am
Michael, well I'm glad we're at least agreed there is a difference! The question then is what constitutes a "definitional difference," and I would suggest when laws change to outlaw child marriage, then I would wager that is indeed a "definitional difference" because marriage can no longer be defined to include the marriage of a man and a child.

If it *wasn't* a change in definition, then both these statements would be true:
i) Marriage is between opposite-sex adults.
ii) Marriage is between a male and female of almost any age.

Obviously they're not, because the definition has changed.

In fact, if you apply your definition of marriage: "But marriage is not merely something that we know about from the Christian revelation. It emerges from our very human nature" and "This is not a random definition [...] It is the meaning of marriage that emerges from almost all human civilisations across history" then the weight of history would certainly include child marriage as a part of the natural definition of marriage. In that case, our current legal and cultural definition of marriage is ahistorical.

Appeals to the natural definition of marriage across civilisations and history are wrong, because we've already revised them, outlawing child marriage and polygamy (and women as property). You have a problem with the latest revision in a long line of revisions; fine, but claiming modern Western marriage is the historical norm is the very historical revision you oppose.

#63 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    23 February 2011 12:53am
No it isn't Luke, because there is world of difference between gradual adjustment and the complete change envisaged here. The child marriage argument is a red herring.

In fact, when you look at the patterns of marriage in Jewish, Greek and Roman society, and the way in which Augustus (for example) enshrined marriage in his law (in 19/18 BC), you see that the difference in essence between then and now is not very large.

#64 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 12:54am
Luke - isn't it more likely that the definition of adult has changed across times and cultures? Than the definition of marriage.

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Craig Bennett    23 February 2011 1:00am
There is a huge difference in the culture of how we consider someone to be married than what is historically understood. I have pointed out a number of times that Luther didn't think it was right for ministers to be involved in marrying people... Now we do.

Luther and the early church considered defacto relationships to be married... Now we don't.

#66 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 1:20am
@Michael, complete change? We're talking about extending marriage rights to 0.1% of the population -- it's not like straight people are going to rush to get gay married if it's legalised; and it's not like gay people are going to stop being gay while it is illegal. It will simply recognise what already is, not much of a change imo. Going by the Stark figures however, 52% of Roman Christian female marriages would now be illegal. That seems like far more of a "complete change" to me, yet you think that's "not very large"? And indeed my argument doesn't rest on Christian marriages alone -- you cite historical norms, and historical norms included child marriage (and much more) at greater rates, making the change between then and now even larger. Claiming otherwise is absurd, and is ignoring the very history you base your argument on.

How 0.1% of the population getting married to a same-sex partner is a "complete change"; while the majority of heterosexual Christian marriages being illegal by modern definitions isn't, is quite beyond me.

@Nathan, Well, I guess the point is simply that puberty-or-thereabouts put you at marital age then, and it doesn't now -- it (rightly!) puts the groom in jail!

#67 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    23 February 2011 1:26am
Yes, Luke a complete change in definition, regardless of statistics. We have to decide about what effect that might have. Maybe its not much.

Sigh. The historical norms included 'child' marriage, but clearly Christians were moving away from this norm as Stark shows.

#68 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 1:41am
Well that's a welcome change -- your original piece sounded quite sure about what the effect might be! :)

Regarding Stark, we can leave the Christian part out, as you say "This is not a random definition; nor is it one based in divine revelation (though it accords with the teachings of many religious traditions). It is the meaning of marriage that emerges from almost all human civilisations across history," but of course it's not that simple, as we've discussed, at length. If you base your definition of marriage on what "emerges from almost all human civilisations across history" then I don't think it's unreasonable to say you must accept all that comes with that, you can't just cherry pick one aspect to make a particular case for modern Western marriage in the 21st C as though it's the historical norm. That is, again, to ignore history.

#69 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 1:53am
@Luke - it's actually a little bit anachronistic to be suggesting that getting married at a young age is always wrong. People live longer now. Mortality rates in childbirth were different then - it made more sense to start younger. I think your whole approach to this question is pretty shoddy. You're taking a huge tangent to the debate, overlaying our own modern suppositions, and assessing the question with some pretty bizarre findings on that basis. I don't think anybody here is taking your objections seriously because we all see through them.

#70 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:11am
@Nathan, uh, no, it doesn't make sense to start younger because maternal and neonatal mortality rates are higher, for one. Good luck defending child marriage. If you want to engage with the actual discussion though, feel free.

#71 of 175 top
Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 2:17am
This whole conversation has gone down a very unhelpful tangent. Michael's article is not about 1st C conventions on the age of marriage, and the NT does not support child marriage or treating one's wife as one's property. The NT distinguishes between adults and children, and suggests marriage as a valid option in these last days to adults. My body belongs to my wife's body, and hers to mine, not a property, but as a spouse in a one flesh union. I won't give my life for property, but I will give my life for my wife if ever that is required, for Christ loved the church and gave himself for her.

#72 of 175 top
Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 2:21am
But the real issue here is about urging the govt not to legislate a change in the definition of marriage to provide for same sex unions being called marriages.
Christians ought to speak to this issue in the public arena, for we are convicted that marriage is not just a good thing for believers, for for all humanity. We are concerned for the wellbeing of our fellow Australians!

Being a secular state does NOT mean that those with such convictions ought not to argue for them. On the contrary, a secular state means that those with convictions can speak to them without being persecuted by the state religion.

#73 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    23 February 2011 2:23am
Luke: it's a red herring, and you are repeating yourself.

#74 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:43am
"I have no answer so I'll just say it's a red herring" is not very compelling Michael :P

Philip G said:
Christians ought to speak to this issue in the public arena, for we are convicted that marriage is not just a good thing for believers, for for all humanity.


Well, obviously not all humanity. I find the appeals to historical norms / social wellbeing / the state of heterosexual marriage to be pretty tortured. Why not just say the truth: "I disapprove of homosexuality on religious grounds, therefore I don't support gay marriage"? Seems a lot more straightforward to me. All the other specious, lets-take-the-scenic-route logic about why gay marriage is bad seems unnecessary, given the position on homosexuality is the real starting point.

With all this talk of not being too timid to make your case, then why not just tell it like it is?

#75 of 175 top
Ron J Bennett    23 February 2011 2:47am
Hey Phillip,

Great posts #71 and #72. I think a good start in defending the sanctity of marriage is to do as mentioned earlier. Fight for the right to marry people in our Church that conform to Christian beliefs.

#76 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    23 February 2011 2:56am
Luke, I have answered you repeatedly and at length, and you are wrong.

#77 of 175 top
Douglas Coles    23 February 2011 3:03am
Luke @ 74 : spot on !

#78 of 175 top
James Ramsay    23 February 2011 3:07am
@Luke Stevens

Because belief in the sinfulness of homosexuality isn't the reason for the opposition to re-defining marriage. Christians have been just as vocal against heterosexual plural "marriage" (in fact the United States invaded Utah to stop it because of vocal Christian opposition to the practise), "open marriages", and in general against all sexual activity taking place outside the bounds of marriage which has in Western culture always been understood as being between a man and a woman.

Calling homosexual unions "marriage" makes as much sense as calling a Muslim "christian". There may be some similarities but the two things are fundamentally different to the point where they can't be conflated.

I think homosexual unions, polyamory, golf buddy unions etc should be allowed on secular grounds but I will never call them marriages.

However I think it would be better on grounds of freedom if the government gout out of defining or managing unions at all and let the matter become contract law. I disapprove of social engineering which is what most marriage related legislation is.

#79 of 175 top
Allan Dowthwaite    23 February 2011 3:17am
@Luke. Turn it down a bit mate. I've been following this for the last few days and it could have been a much more useful discussion if some of your posts were a bit more 'tempered' in tone.

For example, your post #24 is a point worth teasing out, but it gets lost when you continually throw in lines like:

What other important traditions should we look to defend? Maybe we should make homosexuality illegal again? It affects all of us!
(#11)

#80 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 3:35am
@James, so if the bible was a-ok with homosexuality, you think we'd still see the same outcry coming from churches? I find that hard to believe. If the church's view on homosexuality was inline with the rest of society, why would the response to gay marriage be any different? In fact, why wouldn't the church be encouraging people who want to enter more committed relationships?

@Al, fair enough.

#81 of 175 top
Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 3:39am
@James, well said. I agree.
@Luke, I don't think you have understood the opposition many of us have to the redefinition of marriage.

#82 of 175 top
Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 3:42am
@ Luke, again I don't think you have understood the objection to the redefinition of marriage. James is right in making the point that Christians have objected just as strongly to other redefinitions of marriage that have nothing to do with same sex unions.

If you find that hard to believe, then I'd encourage you to take the step and believe!

#83 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 4:01am
@Philip, yes Christians have obviously objected to things that are seen as un-Christian, that shouldn't be too much of a surprise! Churches are hardly unbiased participants in this debate though, and it would be much more straightforward if they just put their cards on the table. It's too cute to say "Hey man, it's just about the definition of marriage, nothing to do with homosexuality!" I mean, really.

The "redefinition" argument is convenient I guess in that you can leave views on homosexuality aside and try instead to build your case on historical norms etc, but as I've repeatedly tried to demonstrate, those are rather flimsy cases, and that's a view much of the rest of society shares (or will soon accept imo), and much of the crying-wolf will come to be seen for what it is.

#84 of 175 top
Philip Charles Gerber    23 February 2011 4:23am

#85 of 175 top
Duncan Maitland    23 February 2011 4:42am
This may seem like a flippant remark (it is not meant to be) but it seems to me as if we are fighting over the sanctity of the dictionary.

I would have thought it fair to say that marriage is already largely about romance rather than the bearing and nurturing of children (a trivial eg. might be that it is common for wedding vows to say "as long as our love shall last" in place of "till death do us part") and therefore that the institution of marriage has already been disrupted. To defend traditional marriage today wouldn't just be defending the status quo, it would be winding back the clock somewhat.

At the very least, I want to suggest that this line of argument is less about a biblical principle of marriage and more about political conservatism. If that's the case, why should we care?

If it isn't the case, why are we harping on about it?

#86 of 175 top
Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 4:52am
Churches are hardly unbiased participants in this debate though, and it would be much more straightforward if they just put their cards on the table. It's too cute to say "Hey man, it's just about the definition of marriage, nothing to do with homosexuality!" I mean, really.


@ Luke, I have put all my cards on the table, and it is wrong for you to impute motives to those with whom you disagree. You are essentially accusing me and others of being liars or at least deceptive, and that is out of line.

James has argued from evidence that churches have objected to changes in the definition of marriage that have nothing to do with same sex marriages.

@Duncan, the divorce rate has decreased at the moment, and marriage is still seen as a lasting commitment between two persons. Again, it is unhelpful to impute hidden reasons as to why people object to a change in definition of marriage. I am not politically conservative and I am arguing from a biblical principle of marriage.

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Matt Busby Andrews    23 February 2011 5:05am
@Duncan, you're absolutely right man. Because we care about humanity we want to see the best for humanity. It's why brave Christians campaign against everything from slavery to sati.

So yes, with regards marriage, Christians are against divorce. We're against polyandry. We're against open, adulterous marriages. We're against the use of pornography. We're against absent fathers who sire children then disappear to serve the god Career.

Or to be more positive, we're for the value of men as men, and the value of women as women. And we're for esteeming that special, magical, creative thing that happens when a man loves a woman for the whole of life.

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Philip Charles Gerber    23 February 2011 5:09am
Duncan, maybe I move in too narrow a circle, but to my observation marriage, as opposed to living together, is still very much about the intention to commit permanently and usually in the context of when kids are coming or being considered, even in civil ceremonies. Perhaps even more so now that it often occurs after living together for a while.
If it is true that vows are being changed from "till death us do part" to "as long as our love shall last", this is a serious and saddenning indictment on our selfish throw-away society.
Anyone who thinks that just "romance" can sustain a long-term relationship is dreaming.

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Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 5:13am
@ Philip, it is certainly the case that even the majority of those who use vows like those Duncan quotes (and sadly, there are a number of couples who use such wording in civil ceremonies) enter marriage expecting that their marriage will last the distance.

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Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 5:24am
Look , as far as I am concerned, the whole point is this: Where is our voice in the face of this? As an example, I asked one of the senior people in our church about signing a petition supporting the institution of marriage. All I got was a lot of mealy mouthed drivel about why he would not sign it and said something to the effect of:"I do not know any Anglican ministers who have signed it" (So damned what???) and "There are only about 16,000 signatures on it so it is doubtful that it is going to get anywhere" With that sort of attitude of course it won't get anywhere! People in churches will sit around bemoaning these problems but will not mobilise to do anything, but once the vote is passed, they complain about it! We need to get all churches involved and get petitions to members of parliament, I am willing to bet that if enough churches got cracking on this then you would see a very different scenario. Apart from that, individual Christians need to stand their ground against anything but the Biblical definition of marriage! You can have all the sophisticated arguments and dissertations you like but at the end of the day if you are following the God of the Bible then you will also follow his requirements regarding the sancticity of marriage full stop!

#91 of 175 top
Matt Busby Andrews    23 February 2011 5:25am
More power to you Stephen.

#92 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 5:36am
Thanks Matt, loved your comment about picketing the Labour Party conference. I really think though, that if individual Christians in all of our churches got up and sent letters or a blanket petition signed by each of the members of all the Churches in Sydney, then I really do think that something would happen. Of course you also combine this action with prayer. But it appears to me that some people in churches seem to think that this type of action is playing politics but it is not. I think one of the most important things a Christian can be is to be aware both politically and socially, in other words be aware of what is going on around them. Plato had a brilliant quote which has certainly been proved correct again and again over the years : The price that good men pay for non interference in public affairs is to be ruled by evil men" Absolute gold!

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Philip Griffin    23 February 2011 5:38am
I have signed a petition as have many in our congregations where I serve. That may encourage you and others, Stephen.

#94 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 5:39am
Hey Matt and Stephen,

I don't really like the picketing idea - why not join the party and try to actually take part in the discussion instead? If we had more people doing that - in all parties - we'd have much less need to stand on picket fences and look like we hate everything. Offer some positive alternatives.

#95 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 5:41am
Phil, that is excellent mate, well done. Now if only we could turn all the other Christians out there in church land into Phillip Griffins even for just long enough for them to sign a petition and then swap them back again, we would be laughing!

#96 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 5:48am
Nathan, I think you have a very good point, pickets can sometimes make otherwise respectable persons look like rabble, the pen is mightier than the sword in this type of case I believe. I am not sure if you are advocating joining the Labour party so I will assume you are and fashion my next comments accordingly but if you are not then please forgive me for jumping the gun. I could never join the Labour party because from what I have seen, it is a repugnant, morally bankrupt organisation. I am sure that some poeple, even Christians have joined this party with the hope, or intention, or call it whatever you like, of changing it, and then when they discovered that they could not, they came away disillusioned. I definitely think that we need more Christians in parliament but I suppose it is really a case of putting up your hand and making the effort.

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Matt Busby Andrews    23 February 2011 5:53am
Nathan, good idea. Which branch will you join?

#98 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 5:55am
Ah Matt Andrews, I would not know you if I fell over you but I am certainly starting to like you mate!

#99 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 6:01am
@Philip, I think the technical difference between "objected to changes in the definition of marriage" in the face of same-sex marriage, and objecting to homosexuality, may be lost on most. Gay people hear "Go straight or go home".

@Stephen, "I asked one of the senior people in our church about signing a petition supporting the institution of marriage." By letting more people opt in? Oh, right, sorry... ;P

@Matt "And we're for esteeming that special, magical, creative thing that happens when a man loves a woman for the whole of life." I'm sure that will resonate deeply with secular gay people.

For all those concerned or otherwise, and are wondering what may happen, it's probably worth noting that Canada legalised same-sex marriage in 2005, and to the best of my knowledge, the institution of marriage in Canada has not -- I repeat, has not -- crumbled.

#100 of 175 top
Derek Hazell    23 February 2011 6:04am
>>Is there any way to defend traditional marriage?
I wonder perhaps we would be btter off addressing the assumptions underlying support for same-sex marriage rather than focusing on the issue of same-sex marriage itself. What underlies support for same-sex marriage? - the idea of "fairness", the idea that religious arguments for "traditional" male-female marriage have no merit in a "secular" society ... - perhaps it would be useful reflecting on where this idea of fairness comes from, and whether secular positions are themeselves religious postions ...

If we can't mount a positive set of arguments as to why we believe what we believe it's going to be hard going ...

cheers

#101 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 6:04am
Luke, what on earth are you talking about? Canada legalised same sex marriage - so what?

#102 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 6:09am
Hi Stephen,

A couple of rebuttals...

" I could never join the Labour party because from what I have seen, it is a repugnant, morally bankrupt organisation"

It's also a democratic group and an easy way to change it, and change the tone of discussion, is to change the fabric of the group. To redeem it.

There are plenty of Christians who don't feel like they need to engage in some sort of cognitive dissonance in order to join an essentially centrist party that exists to serve the workers - but occasionally is hijacked by its fringe. I'm not even talking about getting into parliament - more having an influence at the branch level. Getting a Christian perspective on the table.

The problem is that the Christians who want to be in parliament think the way to do it is to start a party where everybody agrees with them on every point. And you end up with Family First. Politics, especially democracy, is about compromise - and this is part of the problem with a position taken on gay marriage solely on the basis of the Bible. We're not offering those who want to engage in gay marriage a compromise (at this point).

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Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 6:10am
Derek, this is just my opinion so forgive me if I sound arrogant or pretentious but I think the only "argument" the church should be putting forward is the Biblical one. Sure, we can have discussions about these things but I am of the view that you can only "discuss" some of these things so far before you get lost in a myriad of words. Remember what Paul tells us about useless arguments regarding geonology and the law.

#104 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 6:19am
Matt,

I'm not necessarily advocating joining the Labour party - I'm just suggesting that might actually be more productive than standing outside and protesting. If people want to cite Wilberforce as a political example why aren't they emulating his approach?

Were I joining a party it'd be the Libs I think, because I lean to the right. Plus, I'm a trainee minister, and I think the pulpit should be a little apolitical when it comes to party preferences (not necessarily on issues). I'm just suggesting that there's a good way to participate in the democratic process that we often ignore.

#105 of 175 top
Matt Busby Andrews    23 February 2011 6:21am
So, I should do it. But not you.

#106 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 6:24am
I'm not wanting to die on the hill of this campaign. It sounds like you are. It's not a vote changer for me, or even an issue, provided Christians continue to have the freedom to preach the truth and disagree with the majority.

I think it's a better call than picketing. It seems more constructive and has a better chance of an impact. Abortion protestors have been picketing odd spots for years - and haven't had any really measurable impact. Imagine if we'd poured all our energy into shifting the landscape of the two major political parties so that their policies were against abortion. That's how democracy works. Isn't it?

#107 of 175 top
Christopher Braga    23 February 2011 7:47am
Michael, thanks for your vision of what Australia ought to look like. We so often only have a vision for our churches and not for our culture. It made me think that it is one thing to disobey God, it is another thing to structure our society for disobedience.

#108 of 175 top
Duncan Maitland    23 February 2011 8:50am
Matt at #87, I agree with you entirely.

Just to answer a few comments, I don't think what I said about marriage in my last comment is in any way a good thing; I'm just calling it as I see it. Of course, I could be wrong. (I don't mean to suggest that the vow I quoted is the norm, just using it as a trivial illustration!)

The point I want to make is that this debate seems to be focussed entirely on the implications of changing a definition in the dictionary, eg.:

What no-one seems to notice is that the proposed revision of marriage laws involves … a revision of marriage. That is, they wish to change the meaning of marriage in order to have what we now call marriage. Only, if the law grants to them ‘marriage’, it won’t be the same at all. It will have become something essentially different.


I don't think the answer as to why this is a problem cuts through the "apathy of the great majority of Australians". Saying that it "will further destabilise the bedrock of our social order" would sound a bit alarmist to anyone who doesn't share a biblical worldview. Further, I don't think it's that the advocates want the wider community to think that the change will be minimal, as if they were trying to deceive; it's that they actually think the change will be minimal.

I'm not trying to make a case either way. I'm just speaking to the original question of whether or not we can improve on previous campaigns such as SRE.

#109 of 175 top
David Ball    23 February 2011 10:43am
Matt@87 "And we're for esteeming that special, magical, creative thing that happens when a man loves a woman for the whole of life."

Spot on! Though I would make it "when a man and a woman love each other for the whole of life".

I think this is the best line of argument we have, but that it need to be fleshed out a lot more. I am sure that, out of the various life experiences of the participants in discussion, we should be able to come up with plenty of good answers to the question: what are the various ways in which a relationship between a man and a woman has a special / magical quality that same sex relationships do not have? If we cannot, then I think we are wasting our time...

For clarity, I would also add that I don't think that "having children" is a sufficient answer, because a childless married couple are clearly still "married"....

Luke @89: Re "I'm sure that will resonate deeply with secular gay people": Secular gay people are not the relevant audience here - the relevant audience is the vast majority of the Australian population, who may or may not be secular, but who are not gay themselves.

#110 of 175 top
James Ramsay    23 February 2011 11:53am
@Luke Stevens

You realise that both Roman and Greek culture of the classical era accepted homosexual activity but would have been completely astounded by the idea of homosexual "marriage" right?

The fact that Christian opposition to plural marriage caused the United States to invade a sovereign state (and commit a massive act of religious persecution for an officially secular state) shows that the Church isn't just worried about gays.

Maybe you pay too much attention to secular journalism which shouts hysterically whenever a Christian leader says something about homosexuality (which is
"dog bites man" journalism at its best) but merely mutter when other matters (especially non-sexual) are mentioned.

#111 of 175 top
James Ramsay    23 February 2011 11:58am
@Nathan Campbell

Unfortunately I think compromise (in the form of civil unions like the UK has) is likely to end up as a loss for Christians. Homosexuals got civil unions in the UK and now are clamouring that not calling them "marriage" and not allowing them to have religious aspects* is discriminatory.

* This in particular is bad for the Church of England as being an established church they are so legally tied to the state that they may be forced to perform civil unions/marriages if the activists get their way.

#112 of 175 top
Andrew Cameron    23 February 2011 12:51pm
Michael’s piece exemplifies Bonhoeffer’s advice on how theological students should conduct themselves in times of political crisis. It is a fitting word for Christians in general. They ‘must learn to recognize where and when the church of Christ stands in the hour of crisis, of “having to confess” … They must see with their educated eye that new, strange content hides behind the old words. Then, wherever they are, they will have to speak out boldly. … At such times the student should not think and act emotionally but should do so rationally and soberly. He or she shouldn’t just want to play out a role, but should read and study the Bible as never before. At such times the student should know that under no circumstances can he or she serve the church with some kind of tactical reflections, but only with the unvarnished truth. Even the best thought-out political solutions only serve to act as a smoke screen. The student’s duty is to continue to do theology in a pure and objective way. At such times the student should be cautious rather than brash. For the pretence of confident and impetuous speech has nothing to do with the certainty of repentance and the gospel.’ (In Cameron, Andrew J. B., and Brian S. Rosner, eds. The Trials of Theology: Becoming a Proven Worker in a Dangerous Business. Fearn, U.K: Christian Focus, 2010, pp. 73–74.)

#113 of 175 top
Nathan Campbell    23 February 2011 1:17pm
@James - then our only real option is to push for a theocracy or a Christian dictatorship. I volunteer to be dictator.

I don't see how we can function in a democracy without being prepared to offer the same freedom to participate in the democratic process of forming our society to other members of the society. Especially when our preferences are shaped by a God the rest of our society chooses either to passively ignore or actively deny.

Imagine the angst we'd feel if a bunch of pastafarians started campaigning against the eating of pasta on the grounds that we were eating their gods. That's analogous to how non-Christians feel when we try to suggest they live their lives based on the morality imposed by a God they don't believe in.

Sure, there are good secular arguments against homosexual marriage, and I think those are the ones we should be making in a secular country. Shouldn't we trust that God knows more about humans than we do and expect to be able to demonstrate that his is a more excellent way?

I think that if we want our voice to be listened to in the public sphere we need to work at keeping the freedom to voice dissenting opinions - and since we have no protected right to free speech there is actually a real danger that we're going to eventually face troubles in that area.

Why do we think people are going to listen to us telling them to base their identity in Jesus and not their sexuality if they think we hate everybody?

I just don't think fighting hard on this cause is going to resonate with people, but instead it will alienate people. I'd rather say: You're wrong the definition of marriage. God says you're wrong about the definition of marriage. We're not going to recognise your marriage. But the state should. Because you have every right to participate in the democratic process as we do. And together we celebrate that freedom - a freedom that people of the Christian faith won back when we were concerned with more than just the hope that people would hold on to some vestige of Christian morality when they'd long given up any actual belief in Christian doctrines...

#114 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:46pm
(1/2) A comment on the broader picture...

The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.

The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.

The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.

#115 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:46pm
(1/2) A comment on the broader picture...

The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.

The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.

The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.

#116 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:48pm
(1/2) A comment on the broader picture...

The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.

The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.

The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.

#117 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:53pm
(1/2) A comment on the broader picture...

The gay marriage debate is another instance of the church simply being on the wrong side of history. The march towards equal rights for gay people started decades ago and has continued slowly and now seemingly inevitably towards the end goal of equal rights. Good for them, I say.

The final, futile yelps of protest from those on the losing side of the argument -- resorting to dictionary definitions, and that old chestnut tradition -- show how little substance there is on that side of the argument, and surely any fair minded secular person would be bemused as to why the actions of a small minority to move towards more committed relationships within that minority caused such outcry from middle class religious people who have nothing to do with them anyway.

The sad thing is that over these decades the church has gone on and on about the horrors of the "gay lifestyle", and here is a chance for the church to have a positive influence on the direction of gay culture an say "well, we might not agree, but we do support the move towards more committed relationships" and therefore accept gay marriage -- it might not be ideal in the eyes of some, but at least it would be a positive step for the community.

#118 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 2:58pm
(2/2) But no, we're so uncharitable we dare not even share a word lest it offend our sense of moral rightness, and instead we regurgitate conservative talking points about how destructive these mutual, loving, committed relationships practiced by a minority of a minority will be to our society as a whole. Who knew the committed love of gay people was such a cancer on our society?

We leave gay people with little room to move (if only they prayed themselves straight), and even less incentive to consider religious people as anything other than an anachronism. What a missed opportunity. Let's hope they, and society as a whole, treat us more kindly as a minority when it becomes clearer that's what we are.

I imagine in 30-40 yrs we will look back at gay marriage with the same detachment as we do to the decriminalisation of homosexuality, and wonder why people were so cold.

#119 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    23 February 2011 6:51pm
Wrong side of history? Wrong side of fashion, possibly...

#120 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 8:59pm
Luke, I have a question for you: Are you a practicing Christian?

#121 of 175 top
Robert James Elliott    23 February 2011 9:23pm
Just an observation: this is a very interesting debate but almost all the commenters are men. What do women think?

#122 of 175 top
Michael Jensen    23 February 2011 10:02pm
@Stephen - I'll rule the personal question to Luke out of order.

#123 of 175 top
Matt Busby Andrews    23 February 2011 10:25pm
You've all spurred me on. I'm stepping out of my Christian closet and telling the world that I'm against same sex marriage. I've done this online poll. And now I'm posting it on my Facebook wall.

Here's the link: http://www.makeastand.org.au/campaign/index.php?campaign_id=39#petition

If you've been stirred to action here, I encourage you to do the same.

Now, will sydneyanglicans.net be brave enough to profile the online poll on their home page?

#124 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 10:53pm
Well said Matt

#125 of 175 top
Leanne Marie Carswell    23 February 2011 11:01pm
Random woman weighs in with pos:

Early in the discussion I read that we (Christians) had 'lost the argument fo' with no-fault divorce. Yesterday I heard that we'd 'los' the abortion debate with 'the introduction of the contraceptive pill' (from an entirely different source).

We lost it all in the Garden of Eden/Evil.

Many Christians (and others) over the centuries have been keen to preserve a biblical model of relationship and family. Alas, many Christians (and others) over the centuries have also been guilty of perverting the biblical model of relationship and family.

Humanity is tainted. We see this nowhere more clearly than in relationship and family.

This is not an excuse to allow society to fall in its moral and ethical standards. It is not an excuse to display apathy instead of genuine concern but let's avoid the trap of thinking that our society was ever truly faithful to the Bible (at least not since sin became a constant part of the fabric of the world in which we live).

I accept the case laid out by Michael - the change to the fundamental definition of what constitutes marriage will have social consequences. This argument might offer secular thinkers a reason to oppose something that is easily looked upon as an issue of equality not morality.

Ultimately, definitions won't save us, nor morals. At Judgement will we be asked of debates joined/petitions signed or will we be asked, "Did you love them as I loved you?" Grace.

#126 of 175 top
Leanne Marie Carswell    23 February 2011 11:05pm
The first line of my comment should have read

Random woman weighs in with possibly ridiculously obvious comment.

(I ran out of characters in my msg.)

#127 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 11:09pm
Leanne, in reply to your question at the end of your post: Christians are called by God to see every person ever born as an individual that Jesus loved and died for. If we discipline ourselves to do this, then we will certainly love "them" whoever that may be, however we still have the obligation to uphold the priciples of the Christian faith if we truly aspire to follow God and be a part of his fold. This will always inevitably cause division among Christians and non Christians alike but it is a price that disciples of Jesus pay for being faithful. As far as petitions signed or debates joined is concerned, I will reiterate that these are a vehicle for Christians to stand up for what they believe in, they are not the be all and end all.

#128 of 175 top
Leanne Marie Carswell    23 February 2011 11:21pm
Thanks Stephen, I'm in full agreement.

And before the outward actions of debates/pickets/letters/campaigns etc (which are excellent) Christians should work to uphold the moral standards they are fighting for in their own life/marriage/family. That means our churches supporting Christians in this.

And I think Christians should accept rebuke that we haven't always been as faithful in this as we'd like.

I know we know and agree with all this (more of the obvious) but it's all connected, and starts with the spiritual, moves through the personal and then finds voice in the public.

Why would the world listen to our arguments otherwise?

#129 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    23 February 2011 11:27pm
Good on you Leanne, as the Bible says, "If judgement starts with the house of God", and this classic:" If a man does not care for the immediate needs of his family then he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever". Yes we all have to accept responsibility for our failures but this is a part of growing in the faith. Ad as you grow in the faith you will defend the faith which includes upholding the very issue this topic was originally designed to highlight!

#130 of 175 top
Luke Stevens    23 February 2011 11:37pm
Ugh, sorry for earlier triple post, web site was acting very strangely last night.

@Michael
Wrong side of history? Wrong side of fashion, possibly...

Well, that's a rather cynical view, and that's coming from me. What other rights that heterosexuals enjoy that gay people have attained over the last 40+ years are also just a passing fad?

I'd also be interested in hearing someone explain how marriage going from 100% male + female to 99.95% male + female will have a "measurable and visible detriment of many of our fellow citizens."

Bonus points if you can back up this claim by citing empirical data from other countries or states that have already legalized same-sex marriage -- the test cases are already out there, so have at it.

#131 of 175 top
Dianne Howard    24 February 2011 1:32am
We need to engage with our society/world in the way God desires us to engage with it. He chose to relate to the world through his Son. And so primarily we should be urgently speaking of the Son and the judgement to come and the offer of grace so that all might receive forgiveness and true freedom.

Therefore in conversations with society, I suggest we need to try to encourage thought beyond the obvious debate.......we need to learn to ask searching questions. What assumptions are being made in this debate? How do we determine what is best for society? What is truth? What are the outcomes of assuming there is no right and wrong? What are the consequences of individualism? materialism?...Is the rise of feminism in any way related to an increase/openness in homosexuality? What are the implications if the ‘family’ unit diminishes in a society? How can we build a ‘morally’ sustainable future?

Get people thinking, wondering, critiquing. Stir minds to ask ultimate questions about life.

#132 of 175 top
David Hayton    24 February 2011 1:33am
Good on you Luke for expressing a reasoned, alternative point of view. The level of bigotry and ignorance in a number of the above comments is of great concern.

#133 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    24 February 2011 1:35am
Ignorance and Bigotry - there is just as much of that outside the church as there is in it!

#134 of 175 top
Sandy Grant    24 February 2011 1:42am
Here are several efforts in Australia and the USA making the case - from a secular angle - for understanding marriage as fundamentally heterosexual, and against recognising same-sex relations as marriage.

Why not review them and see which parts of the arguments hold up and you find useful for public discourse.

National Review (US) - thoughtful essay length...

Courier Mail - opinion piece by David Van Gend, also a conservative on euthanasia, writing in the Daily Tele style.

The Australian - an opinion piece arguing against same-sex marriage, most notable because it is written by an open homosexual, who has argued for same-sex partners to get a fair deal on superannuation etc, namely Christopher Pearson.

#135 of 175 top
David Hayton    24 February 2011 1:46am
I'm not disagreeing with you Stephen. However, as Christians surely we follow a higher calling than that of the world ie to love God and love our neighbour as ourself? To love our neighbour we need to understand them and exercise grace, compassion and kindness in the way in which we interact. Regardless of the way in which we view same-sex relationships, we are ultimately dealing with human relationships which is a very sensitive topic. Many people have been badly damaged by the church's approach to these issues, and I think we need to remember that we are talking about real people, real emotions and potentially real pain. If we have love one for another, then people will know that we are Christs' disciples...

#136 of 175 top
Sandy Grant    24 February 2011 1:50am
By the way, given the motion which got up in federal parliament last year (17 or 18 November) asking MPs to seek the views of their constituents on this topic, now is an excellent time to volunteer your views to your local federal MP, and perhaps Senators as well.

A politely written, well reasoned argument will carry some weight. I think there is room for letters which simply make the argument from a secular point of view (e.g. making some of the points referred to above, or in the links I posted), as well as for informing the MP about the biblical view, and how it informs so many Christians, a significant part of any electorate.

#137 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    24 February 2011 2:03am
David, point respectfully taken, see my post number 127. I cannot sum up my point any better than what I wrote there. I think some people here are trying to paint this forum as a gay bashing exercise which it is not, all most of the people are saying here is that if we are truly desiring to belong to Christ then we have to contend for the things of Christ and this will inevitably bring about charges of hatred, bigotry, discrimination etc. As Christians we have to see through that and make a stand for what is right. If we just stand by and say nothing every time some minority group wants their way then what does that say about us? Mark my words David, the church will be seen by society as irrelevant as there will be no differentiation from any other "group". We are called to come out from among the unbelievers and be separate, this does not mean Christians think they are better than people who are not. I know now, that as a Christian if I could go around and touch everybody around me on the head and impart the spirit of God to them so that they will be saved, I'm sure you and just about every other Christian on this forum would as well. Of course we must love our neighbor as ourselves but this does not include approving of what we as Christians know to be wrong.

#138 of 175 top
Douglas Coles    24 February 2011 2:49am
David @ 135: good to be reminded of the love of God that our Lord taught for all his people - and thanks to Luke, for trying to inject some balance into this discussion. This is a very emotion driven subject; we need to individually listen to what God is saying to us not adopt a herd approach in our thinking about it.

#139 of 175 top
Philip Charles Gerber    24 February 2011 2:50am
It has occurred to me, and many others might have already said or thought this so sorry, that we do have the right to state why the PRACTICE of homosexuality is wrong for us, along with all sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, theft/stealing, greed, drunkardness, slander and swindling. (1Cor6:9-10). Then to segue into the Gospel that saves (1Cor6:11) and how we want that for all people. Gay marriage is an endorsement of homosexual practice (as opposed to the neutrality of decriminalisation) and stands over and against one of what we regard as less than ideal in the above list, all of which are either legally (at the extreme end of the spectrum in most cases) or morally proscibed. Does that work?

#140 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    24 February 2011 2:56am
Douglas, you seem to keep missing the whole point of this discussion - it has nothing to do with a herd approach, as for what God is saying to us we have the Bible, you might open it to see what it says. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, let me repeat it for the last time - God does teach love for all people but he does not teach a love of things that he has made quite clear that He disapproves of! As for Phillip - well said mate but I fear that your straight forward honesty will go over the heads of some people.

#141 of 175 top
Douglas Coles    24 February 2011 3:36am
Thank you, Stephen, for your suggestion, but I have been opening my Bible for all of my long reading life.
1 Corinthians chapter 12 - 'Faith, Hope and Charity - but the greatest of these is Charity'.
I don't think I'm missing the point of what you and others are saying in this discussion at all.

#142 of 175 top
Stephen Davis    24 February 2011 3:38am
I dare to differ Douglas, I still think you are missing the point completely and if anyone else reading this thinks I am wrong then speak up!I am not immune to constructive criticism.

#143 of 175 top
Sandy Grant    24 February 2011 4:27am
Michael may judge this off-topic, as it is directed to speaking with the surrounding world.

But Douglas, David, Luke, thank you for calling us to understanding of others and to compassion, although this is by no means a call unique to you on this forum.

Now speaking to you as Bible readers and, I assume, believers, and on an Anglican forum, may I ask a couple of questions.

I note that Article 20 of the 39 says
it is not lawful for the Church to ordain anything contrary to God's word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another.

What do you think of the wisdom of this Anglican standard?

In particular, when you remind me to love my neighbour I am reminded of the Lord Jesus. I know John 8:1-11 has been discussed by Michael here in another post recently, but I always think of Jesus approach to the woman taken in adultery. He refuses to condemn her. That's the part most moderns like to quote. But he also says, "Now go and leave your life of sin." Was our Lord being loving to her in telling her to stop her particular sin?

May I also ask what you think of the teaching of our Lord in Matthew 19:3-12? Here Jesus founds teaching on marriage back in the creation, even prior to the Mosaic Law, and states that it involves just two, namely male and female, being joined as one flesh, for life. He also acknowledges that not all can accept this and the only alternative he provides is to remain single.

#144 of 175 top
Dan Baynes    24 February 2011 2:38pm
It seems that no one has yet mentioned demographics. Doesn't Australia suffer from the same negative trend seen across the western world?

In which case, what on earth is the point of giving equal social status (let alone tax dollars) to procreative and non-procreative unions alike?

That's not "ending discrimination", that's "debasing the currency". You don't have to be Christian to see that.

Much of the current battle hinges on the terms employed. We should refuse to be sucked in to fighting the opposition on their chosen semantic turf, instead staking out our own. Let's charge the political homosexual movement with lying to the world about what they're really trying to do, and (as others have pointed out) demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)

Put them right on the back foot, take the battle to them. E.g. when they ask what's the difference between straight and gay marriage, let's rather ask them back what the two have in common, and whether the dubious common factor is worth giving legal status to.

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Luke Stevens    25 February 2011 1:08am
Let's charge the political homosexual movement with lying to the world about what they're really trying to do, and (as others have pointed out) demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)


What’s more, the campaign has cast those who might uphold the traditional view as bigots driven by religious zealotry, determined to impose their irrational and medieval views on the rest of the community come what may. I am fully expecting this article to lead to such accusations.

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Philip Charles Gerber    25 February 2011 1:34am
Dan, I think it is a bit strong to say "demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)".
The movement is no doubt quite diverse. Whilst there would be SOME who want to legalise some of the other aberrations, it's most unfair to tar the whole movement with that broad accusation.
However I think it valid to question why homosexuality is now said to be not an aberration whereas all the others, polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc., still are.

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David Hayton    25 February 2011 6:52am
Dan, I can't believe what you have written! Your purported link between committed same-sex relationships and paedophilia and incest is baseless, ignorant and highly offensive to many. Most Christians these days accept the scientific evidence that sexuality is a matter of orientation not choice. Accepting that, sexual ethics relating to one's particular orientation is a matter of debate, and the Church has been struggling with it over the last couple of decades.

To associate people of same-sex orientation with harmful (and criminal activities) like child abuse and incest which involve no choice and gross breaches of trust, is in my view, quite absurd and irrational.

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Michael Jensen    25 February 2011 7:19am
Yeah, outta line I think.

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Robert James Elliott    28 February 2011 12:43am
This has been a very good and spirited discussion (for the most part). Well done to Michael for his provocative article and hopefully it has caused some minds to be confronted with what the end of traditional marriage may mean for Australia. I am increasingly worried by the normalisation of gay behaviour and the continual pandering by politicians to the demands of the more militant gay movement. Even our nominal Christian politicians go running for cover. The next time a supposed Christian MP speaks at an event, they should be confronted as to their stance on this issue.

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Stephen Davis    28 February 2011 12:52am
I think that is fair comment Robert!

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Nathan Campbell    28 February 2011 12:52am
@David - I think you should read Dan's comments again. Obviously this is a line that needs to be trodden carefully - but I think he's asking a broader question about sexual ethics and freedoms, not trotting out the old line that homosexuality and child abuse are synonymous. There are actually people arguing for legalising incest as part of this debate. They're not on the fringe either. Or no more fringey than any "bright" atheist. There's a link in this post to a discussion on a blog called the Friendly Atheist, and a Social Issues Executive paper that suggest the same thing.

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Stephen Davis    28 February 2011 1:23am
Nathan, I think something else David has to think about is his comment - "Most Christians these days accept the scientific evidence that sexuality is a matter of orientation not choice". Well how does he explain those homosexuals and lesbians that turn away from that lifestyle and become husbands and wives? From what I have seen, there is very little scientific evidence to back up the claim of orientation.

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Nathan Campbell    28 February 2011 1:29am
I think there's a theological case to be mounted for orientation... potentially. If we're born naturally wired for sin it shouldn't surprise us that we're born oriented towards sin. And I think Romans 1 suggests that we, as humans, come to the point where our perversions seem natural to us. I don't think the idea that we're oriented towards sin is a threat, I think our response should be calling people to find their orientation in a relationship with Jesus - which is why I think this whole "defence of marriage" argument is a bit of a waste of energy. Lets promote Jesus rather than defending marriage. Which will mean saying something about marriage - but lets frame it as a positive rather than just coming across as out of touch wowsers who want our own freedoms but don't want others to enjoy their own.

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Ron J Bennett    28 February 2011 1:32am
@ Robert - I agree. It seems our politicians are Christian in name only. One NSW politician said recently that her faith is part of her but seperate to her work. This is very unfortunate because I believe that I do not think you can seperate them.

Another thig to remeber is that we are talking about people that are not led by The Spirit and will never understand the way we think. Argue with a fool and only the fool will win.

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Luke Stevens    28 February 2011 1:42am
@Nathan, what broader question? Consider this:

"Much of the current battle hinges on the terms employed. We should refuse to be sucked in to fighting the opposition on their chosen semantic turf, instead staking out our own. Let's charge the political black movement with lying to the world about what they're really trying to do, and (as others have pointed out) demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)

Put them right on the back foot, take the battle to them. E.g. when they ask what's the difference between pure and mixed marriage, let's rather ask them back what the two have in common, and whether the dubious common factor is worth giving legal status to."

Black, white, gay, straight; hate is hate.

--

Promote tolerance, have your faith questioned. Promote ignorant hate, and it's a serious, "broader question." Something is deeply wrong there.

And you lot wonder what motivates minorities to fight for their rights. (Oh. but that makes them "militant"...)

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Nathan Campbell    28 February 2011 1:50am
@Ron - a politician is, at least in part, paid to represent their electorate. That's why we have a representative democracy. They're not just paid to make decisions by themselves. It's hard to do that as a Christian if your electorate is largely non-Christian.

@Luke - It's not hate to disagree with somebody. The broader question is "if two parties consent to engage in sexual concourse what right does the state have to legislate around it" - now the question is more complex in the cases Dan has suggested - but it's still a question of deciding why we find some relationships abhorrent but not others. You'll find there are plenty of people within the side arguing for same sex marriage already suggesting that the ideas that marriage can't exist between people who are related, and between multiple people, are archaic and based on religious beliefs so worth reconsidering. Check out the link in my comment.

"Black, white, straight, gay" - we're dealing with different categories. Your example is a category error. Dan's isn't. If we're saying the question is "should marriage be defined as one man, and one woman, for life" then the question of mixed marriage doesn't hold, unless you're suggesting that some people in this discussion don't believe black people, or white people, are people - in which case I think you may have misread the room, or the discussion...

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Luke Stevens    28 February 2011 2:04am
@Nathan, you're right, it's not hate to disagree with someone. It's hate when you smear those with whom you disagree as liars of which "many" support pedophilia and incest. I'm sure people like Penny Wong (irony noted), David Marr, Michael Kirby etc would have, let's say, somewhat of problem with such a characterization.

Hateful cliches are not unique to the gay community, black men in the US for example were considered to be violent rapists without too much trouble ~30 yrs ago (consider this story for example), but it's deeply disturbing to see them defended here.

(As an aside, mixed race marriages were another tradition-busting change in recent generations that we don't regret.)

As long as certain prejudices are a given -- a starting point that cannot be questioned, but must be reasoned from -- then I think the same-sex marriage argument is always going to be difficult to accept.

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Timothy Rutzou    28 February 2011 2:11am
1/2 May I throw on some brakes...It seems that there is one large assumption within this article and following discussions– that is that it is not possible to be a (evangelical?) Christian, support the family, and support the homosexual marriage.

It is true that homosexuality is a complicated issue with much politics behind the arguments, on all sides. We need to understand this and respond carefully and intelligently. Firstly, and perhaps most obviously, there are those who will want to use this to expose the church as ‘homopobic’ and so above all we must show compassion and intelligence in our responses. Secondly, and more subtley, our responses need to highlight that the church is not simply a 1950’s organization for the moralisation of society. Finally, characteristic of many responses to the homosexual problem is the problem of reductionism, reducing homosexuality as simply social, physical or a moral issue. Homosexuality is a complex phenomena which undoubtedly has biological roots, and social and moral categories.

As far as same sex marriage as a legal concept, we do not know, indeed I consider it doubtful that it will destroy the institution of marriage any more than heterosexual practices such as the pill, women's liberation, easy divorce laws, de facto relationships, post modern ideology, or socialism. In fact I find it difficult to maintain that extending marriage to homosexual partners will deal marriage or society a crippling blow.

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Neil Foster    28 February 2011 2:12am
Michael J, thank you for a thoughtful and very helpful comment. In particular I think you are spot on when you say
What no-one seems to notice is that the proposed revision of marriage laws involves … a revision of marriage. That is, they wish to change the meaning of marriage in order to have what we now call marriage. Only, if the law grants to them ‘marriage’, it won’t be the same at all. It will have become something essentially different.

Recognising that the rhetoric about "discrimination" is missing the point is very important- it is not discriminatory when relevant differences are taken into account, and the sex of the participants has always been relevant to the definition of marriage. See here for a paper I have written on the topic in which I am in furious agreement with Michael.

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Timothy Rutzou    28 February 2011 2:13am
This poses another problem.We need to be very careful about making social prophesy – in the past moving beyond the traditional marriage has had mixed results.Often it is ideological context in which non-traditional marriages occur which determines it's success – but even that is no guarantee. We all know of solid and grounded families with messed up children and messed up families with solid and grounded children.Will a strong law aimed at preserving heterosexual marriage produce a better society?Furthermore, as some have pointed out, we marry now for love, rather than social obligation, and have sexual relations as an expression of love rather than loving procreation. Unlike other times in history we have the freedom, culture, wealth, knowledge and technology which allow this freedom to take place. In times past marriage was taken very seriously by society, as a social responsibility with social obligations and social implications. We now we have moved beyond social responsibility or social rights to individual freedom and rights, and it becomes very difficult to recapture any form of 'social' or 'community' rights, when it conflicts against our sacrosanct individual freedom. Finally, the Gospel that we hold is not that legislated traditional morality makes better societies, but rather that any collective expression of sinful people is sinful, and our God came into that sinful society, amongst tax collectors and prostitutes, not to condemn them, but to give his life

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Nathan Campbell    28 February 2011 2:42am
@Luke - I can't prove that "many" hold a particular stance, but I can demonstrate that some do - and I think the idea is (while I don't like slippery slope arguments as a rule) to tread carefully when reinventing sexual ethics/morality on the basis of "if it involves love it is therefore something that our legislation should encourage/incentivise." Because there are plenty of sexual relationships that may involve love that we say are wrong as a rule. We even legislate against them. And people are starting to ask why that is in the case of polygamy and incest.

At some level, the only reason the state gets involved in marriage legislation is that it in some way benefits the nation for it to do so. So currently the government provides an incentive to enter "marriage" in the form of tax breaks and other benefits.

Why should the government provide such an incentive to same-sex relationships?

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Craig Bennett    28 February 2011 4:49am
In regards to the paedophilia issue; its not just a homosexual issue; many heterosexual people are all for this practice to be legalised.

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Nathan Campbell    28 February 2011 5:03am
@Craig - many heterosexual people are also for the legislation of gay marriage. I don't think one's sexuality is the determining factor in establishing a position on this debate, I'd say it's more about personal philosophy and political stance.

Because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt in online debates like this - I'm going to assume that's what Dan meant in this comment (though it could be read either way). I don't think he's saying the people lobbying for this change are all homosexual, but rather that they are lobbying on behalf of homosexuals:

"Let's charge the political homosexual movement with lying to the world about what they're really trying to do, and (as others have pointed out) demand to know why they're not campaigning for legalising polyamory, pedophilia, incest, etc. (In fact many of them would be content with these too, but are keeping mum for tactical reasons of course.)"

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David Hayton    28 February 2011 8:15am
Well how does he explain those homosexuals and lesbians that turn away from that lifestyle and become husbands and wives? From what I have seen, there is very little scientific evidence to back up the claim of orientation.


The Church once taught that left-handed people were evil and as a consequence tried to force them to be right-handed with varying degrees of success. It seems that the same is true of gay/lesbian people today. It may be true that some who are same-sex attracted "become husband and wives", but that could due to various reasons, including bisexuality or what has been called "institutionalised heterosexuality" - many prisons witness "institutionalised homosexuality". There is also the question of integrity - many gay/lesbian people have married, hiding their sexual-orientation only to leave that relationship later in life. Should people live a lie?

You only have to look at the research regarding suicide amongst young men, to know that sexuality is huge factor. To claim that you can "turn away from that lifestyle" is a simplistic and ill-informed suggestion. Why would anyone choose to be discriminated against? Why would anyone choose to be hated by their family, friend and church community?

As a matter of interest, I would like to know how many people on here have gay and lesbian friends... Given some of these comments, any gay or lesbian person would run a mile - so much for being a "friends of sinners!"

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David Hayton    28 February 2011 8:22am
Also re pedophilia: most child-abuse is perpetrated by MARRIED heterosexual men, so it is a fallacy to suggest that the type of people who support gay marriage, also support legalising pedophilia or other such things. It is absurd as me suggesting that we should ban heterosexual marriage because it provides a breeding ground for pedophila!

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Dan Baynes    28 February 2011 9:24am
The Church once taught that left-handed people were evil and as a consequence tried to force them to be right-handed with varying degrees of success.


I'd love to see documentation of this; sounds rather Mohammedan to me. But in any case arguments that go "The Church once taught..." cut no ice with Protestants who can point to the heroic status of Ehud whose left-handedness saved the day (Judges 3). Other than that, does the Bible say anything at all about the matter? (FWIW I'm a leftie too)

Should people live a lie?


Is self-control "living a lie" then? Am I living a lie if I refuse to indulge any and every lust that occurs to me?

Why would anyone choose to be discriminated against? Why would anyone choose to be hated by their family, friend and church community?


They do choose it, often too, if they judge that the benefits of that choice outweigh those disadvantages. Why did the early Christians choose death rather than apostatise? Why have all those Arabs immolated themselves in recent months?

So for addicts to homosexual behaviour, the perceived delight in satisfying their desires is worth the while of whatever social opprobrium they may get.

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David Hayton    28 February 2011 9:57am
@Dan - the word 'sinister' (now meaning evil) comes from the latin word 'sinistra' meaning left - there is tonnes of documentation to support my claims - I don't just come up with random stuff! The discrimination against left-handed occurred right up until the 20th century. How would you feel if someone told you that you were evil by being left-handed and that you should change and be like the 'normal' people?

I'm certainly not against self-control, but you keep throwing straw men into the argument. We aren't talking about 'any and every lust' - we are talking about a specific issue which despite one's view on whether it is a good/moral thing, actually involves self-control ie an exclusive committed long-term relationship between two individuals of the same-sex.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to your last paragraph. There seems to be double-standard here: if it's fine to shun homosexual people because they 'choose it', then according to your standard, is it equally fine to discriminate against people who are addicts to arrogance, rudeness, unkind and self-seeking behaviour, or judging others but choose that behaviour over godly living? I don't think any of us would be left somehow...

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Matt Busby Andrews    28 February 2011 10:04am
@David, you're a lawyer, right? A bit of curious etymology doesn't prove that the church has a history of persecuting left handed people. You know that right?

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David Hayton    28 February 2011 10:22am
@Matt - you're right re eptymology - I just find words interesting :-) But there is plenty of literature on the topic of the persecution of left-handed people. Probably best left for another time though, otherwise this forum will be go on forever! :-)

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Matt Busby Andrews    28 February 2011 10:36am
@David - fair enough, we'll let that one go.

The point you made that really hit home with me was about being "friend of sinners." I go to an inner city Anglican church, and I think we're pretty good at attracting and welcoming people who know they've stuffed things up. People with mental illnesses, addicts, self-confessed workaholics. And sinners like me, incidentally.

But I think you're right. Why is it that we're so lousy at attracting people who are gay? Not a lot at my joint. I'll think on that tonight.

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Dan Baynes    28 February 2011 10:50am
@Dan - the word 'sinister' (now meaning evil) comes from the latin word 'sinistra' meaning left - there is tonnes of documentation to support my claims - I don't just come up with random stuff! The discrimination against left-handed occurred right up until the 20th century. How would you feel if someone told you that you were evil by being left-handed and that you should change and be like the 'normal' people?


I know all that, and FYI again I grew up at first in Japan and would have been made to write right-handedly except my mum got an exemption for me on the grounds I wouldn't be going right the way through their education system. They actually have plausible reasons for this, e.g. the brush strokes of their calligraphy aren't symmetrical and don't work so well if attempted with the left hand (although they let me do that too!).

As an obdurate Scripturalist of course I'd know that any claims about the moral evil of left-handedness were bogus - Article VI and all that. I'd have put up with the social taboo, knowing people have suffered much worse for things that really matter.

...

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Dan Baynes    28 February 2011 10:58am
I'm certainly not against self-control, but you keep throwing straw men into the argument.


I rather think that I'm exposing where other people's arguments prove too much. See below....

We aren't talking about 'any and every lust' - we are talking about a specific issue which despite one's view on whether it is a good/moral thing, actually involves self-control


Leaving aside the fact that supposedly faithful homosexual pairings are notoriously inclusive of promiscuity along the way, I would remind you that partial self-control is still sinful - James 2:10. Would you be content if I justified adultery on the grounds that I was simultaneously refusing other women I felt drawn to?

ie an exclusive committed long-term relationship


Why only "long-term" and not lifelong? What happened to "as long as ye both shall live"? Are you implicitly admitting that homosexual unions are v. unlikely to prove lifelong, and that in any case the contracting parties have no real intention of making them last the distance?

between two individuals of the same-sex.


Why two? If you change other elements of marriage, viz. "lifelong" and "opposite sex", why continue to insist on the numerical element? This is no straw man - I'm asking you to be consistent. Why don't you come out and support polygamy? After all P. is further than H. from Christian marriage in one respect, but closer to it in another.

...

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Dan Baynes    28 February 2011 11:01am
And who said anything about shunning homosexuals? I'd rather wish to confront them, politely but squarely, about the false logic of their self-justifying arguments. Anything but running away.

And re. heterosexuals who back the same arguments, I'd bet that nine times out of ten they see that as a front, or first line of defence, for their own non-homosexual sexual sins. Safety in numbers and all that.

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David Hayton    28 February 2011 11:14am
By long-term - I meant life-long. I was talking about long-term partners who want to seal their relationship with a life-long legal partnership. I'm not necessarily advocating it; I'm just trying to clarify what is the issue at hand. I think you are reading way too much into what I'm saying.

"And re. heterosexuals who back the same arguments, I'd bet that nine times out of ten they see that as a front, or first line of defence, for their own non-homosexual sexual sins. Safety in numbers and all that"

Are you suggesting that people who express a different view to you on this issue are basically all sexual perverts? If so, then you are completely out of line.

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Andrew White    04 March 2011 9:52am
Before we can start, we need to define "What is marriage?". Is it:
* a public recognition of affection and commitment?
* a political and social contract to provide for the raising of the next generation?

If the former, then there's really no need for the state to be involved at all. Nor is there any robust argument for providing financial incentives to married persons over anyone else. Care for weak or disabled can be dealt with as a separate item.

However, the state might like to institute a "co-habitation contract", whereby two or more persons residing at the same address for a period of time can register this fact in order to be treated as a collective for taxation and similar purposes. But I'm not sure I see specific benefit to this.

If it's the latter, then marriage is not just a religious institution, but a vital social one. Research consistently shows that children develop best in a stable home environment with their biological parents. Thus, society and/or the state may indeed want to discriminate for marriage with special privileges to assist in raising children.

Before discussing "marriage", it pays to be clear what sort of marriage you are discussing.

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