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by Archbishop Peter Jensen
Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
Why bad liturgy can make you a murderer
Michael Jensen
July 11th, 2011

One reason why we Christians argue so much about which hymn to sing, which liturgy to follow, which way to worship is that the commandments teach us to believe that bad liturgy eventually leads to bad ethics. You begin by singing some sappy, sentimental hymn, then you pray some pointless prayer, and the next thing you know you have murdered your best friend.

         Stanley Hauerwas

What is the relationship between what we believe and our corporate worship?

Mostly, I think we would say that our church gatherings are given shape by what we believe. That is, we first decide what we believe, and then we decide what our meetings should be like. The priority is given to doctrine over liturgy.

In fact, the relationship is not as neat as that. If we think about it a little bit more carefully, we should notice that Christian doctrine is itself in fact an outworking of worship. What do I mean? I mean that we first believe - in the sense of responding in faith to the grace of God in Christ - before we believe in the sense of affirming the propositions of a creed or confession.

But that still isn’t quite right. We can’t believe in the first sense without believing something in the second sense - I need to assent to some truths about God before I can have faith in him. So what we have, in fact, is a recursive relationship between the two. We pray informed by doctrine which is in turn an outworking of our prayers.

Justification by faith is a case in point. It is (as a study of Luther’s career will show) a discovery at a existential and a doctrinal level almost simultaneously. We pray – we believe – we pray. Or: we believe, we pray, we believe.  

The Anglican Church has in its formularies not only a confession, the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, but also an authorised Prayer Book – the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. These are the documents to which clergy are usually required to give assent, at least in the Anglican Church of Australia.

From the earliest moments of breaking away from the Church of Rome in the 1530s, Thomas Cranmer and others put immense effort not only into formulating the evangelical doctrines of the new church, but into framing services that would be the basis for the new church’s common life. The results can be found in the Prayer Books of 1549 and 1552, the ancestors of the 1662 book. The Articles themselves give quite a bit of space to what ought to happen in the congregations of the church – not merely what ought to be believed, but what ought to be practised.

Not only was the authority of Scripture affirmed as a point of doctrine, for example; Cranmer ensured that it was practised by having an extensive programme of readings from both testaments in his liturgies.
Since the nineteenth century, some Anglicans of a more Anglo-Catholic stripe have evoked the Latin phrase lex orandi  lex credendi  - ‘the law of prayer is the law of belief’ – in order to assert the priority of the act of corporate worship over the content of doctrine. That is, the way a church prays is determinative for what a church believes.

Allegedly, the slogan originates with Prosper of Aquitaine, a student of St Augustine’s in the fifth century. But it was in fact the invention of a Roman Catholic monk, Dom Prosper Gueranger, near the end of the nineteenth century. Later scholars of Christian liturgy have tried to find the principle in the ancient writings of the church. But it is a questionable method of doing history to say the least. Nevertheless, the catchphrase has been used in Anglican circles to diminish the sense in which Anglicanism is thought to have particular doctrinal convictions.

It is, however, quite incorrect to assert that lex orandi, lex credendi means that the way the church prays is determinative for what the church believes; or that the liturgical form cannot be separated from the doctrinal substance.

That is certainly not what Cranmer or the other framers of the Anglican formularies had in mind.

He did, however, bequeath to Anglicans a conviction that what goes on in corporate worship ought to school individual Christians in their response to the divine mercy of God. What we do when we meet together forms a regular habit of response to God which in turn forms good habits in the life of the individual Christian.

The 1552 Prayer Book was a sublime exercise in what we might call ‘reformed spirituality’. It brought the congregation to their knees in fear of the wrath of God, only to lift them up again by the proclamation of the marvellous news of the grace of God. It subjected them to the word of God in its richness. It brought them to the Lord’s Table by faith alone. It taught them to pray; and thus taught them what to believe and what to do. 
Having the BCP or something like it certainly isn’t a guarantee that people will respond to Christ in faith.

But on the hand, shallow corporate worship leads to shallow Christians – or worse.

That’s what US theologian Stanley Hauerwas is getting at in the quotation I began with. He is, of course, exaggerating. But not by a great deal.

And that I think is the question for those modern Anglicans who see themselves as the heirs of Cranmer. We know that merely following the form of Cranmer’s services isn’t the point. But are our Sunday gatherings schooling our congregations in the riches of a ‘reformed spirituality’ in a way in which Cranmer might have recognised? 

Photo credit: Tony Webster

 

Archie Poulos    11 July 2011 11:51pm
Thanks Michael. We learn our 'functional' doctrine not just from our reading, hearing and reflecting on Scripture but also from what we do as we gather together. As you say; Cranmer was well aware of that, and history keeps validating the point.

#2 of 75 top
Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 12:14am
So is Catholic liturgy "bad liturgy"?

And if so, are regular mass-goers more likely to commit murder than 4-point Calvinists?

#3 of 75 top
Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 12:19am
Saint John Chrysostom - the great homilist and liturgist of the Eastern Orthodox tradition - certainly provided plenty of grist for murderous mills in his sermons against Jews.

Methinks that what issues from the pulpit is far more likely to incite murder than Hauerwas' "sappy, sentimental hymn" or "pointless prayer".

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Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 12:25am
Mind you, the reference to "perfidious Jews" in the former Roman Catholic liturgy for Good Friday may well have helped along numerous murders.

But I guess one can never know for sure...

#5 of 75 top
Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 12:50am
From the Thirty Nine Articles (a confession, rather than a liturgy, but one whose spirit permeates Anglican liturgy):

XIII. Of Works before Justification.
WORKS done before the grace of Christ and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, are not pleasant to God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ, neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea, rather for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they have the nature of sin.


Thus it is instilled in the minds of the congregants that only works done by Christians (and the right sort of Christian at that - no "bad liturgy" devotees) can actually be good in God's eyes.

Therefore, if a Muslim is generous, if a nun founds a hospital, if an atheist forgives an offence, if a Jewish judge is just and incorruptible - all these acts are nothing to God. They are merely the sinful thrashings of the unchosen.

Bad confession => Bad liturgy?

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Michael Canaris    12 July 2011 2:02am
Admittedly, Rome wasn't alone concerning "perfidious Jews"; if anything, Cranmer's corresponding Good Friday collects as they appear in the BCP (substantially identical in this case from 1549 through 1662 ) seem more grating on our sensibilities, what with their quaint addition of "Turks".

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Michael Canaris    12 July 2011 2:05am
I dare say, Grant, that at first blush your characterisation of Michael Jensen's position seems a straw-man.

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Michael Canaris    12 July 2011 2:17am
Concerning Justification by Faith and our liturgies, it has struck me at various times that the juxtaposition of the Magnificat and Nunc dimittis at EP expresses succinctly the salvific narrative and consequent appropriation thereof underpinning JBF.

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Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 2:27am
Hello there Michael C,
Thee:
I dare say, Grant, that at first blush your characterisation of Michael Jensen's position seems a straw-man.


It's not so much a characterisation of Michael J's position as a wandering rap on the Hauerwas quote.

I'm suggesting that Hauerwas' essential point, i.e. sappy hymns and pointless prayers => murder (allowing for hyperbole) is mostly laughable. And yet there are real liturgical nasties, eg. the construction of Jewish perfidy at old Catholic Easter.

On the other hand, if Hauerwas is implying that the best friend he wants to kill is the author of the sappy hymns and pointless prayers, well, I'm inclined to sympathise with such homicidal urges. :^)

As for the 39 Articles stuff: I'm suggesting that such confessions (and their liturgical expressions) school Anglicans to devalue signs of goodness in the religious Other. If the possibility of genuine goodness is barred from one's conception of the Other, then that can, indeed, be a stepping stone to all kinds of unpleasantness, even - in extreme cases - violence.

Yours,
Scarecrow

#10 of 75 top
Michael Canaris    12 July 2011 2:31am
I'm suggesting that Hauerwas' essential point, i.e. sappy hymns and pointless prayers => murder (allowing for hyperbole) is mostly laughable.
Not unprecedented, though.

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Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 2:45am
Ah, yes, Michael C, but Master Kung was not Christian, so what he has to say is devoid of the grace of Christ and thus irreconcilable with true virtue. It's just more sinful thrashings.

Or is Article XIII of the 39, perhaps, awry?

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Michael Canaris    12 July 2011 4:10am
Might distinct modes of knowledge/virtue be in view here? In a whole bunch of fields I could envisage material being deemed fascinating/praiseworthy while not conducive to formal accreditation.

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Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 4:39am
Perhaps one could give thanks that the Spirit blows where it will, and is not circumscribed by articles of religion.

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Michael Canaris    12 July 2011 4:44am
Indeed one can, although I do enjoy synthesizing things where possible.

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Grant Hayes    12 July 2011 4:49am
As do I.

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Robert James Elliott    12 July 2011 7:32am
This is very interesting. Thank you Michael. I did find the Hauerwas quote to be very amusing. To my rather Anglo-quasi-Papist ears, if that quote was right, there would be a huge number of Pentecostal and other guitar-strumming Christians in prison, as I dislike their music and find their long-winded prayers intolerable. However, I am not sure either me or Cranmer’s ghost should get a say here. By the way: I thought good reformed Protestants would not want Cranmer or any other dead Christian having a say (rule by saints?) but would instead submit to a Scriptural authority on worship?

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David Ashton    12 July 2011 10:06pm
I don't know if I've missed the point or you guys have.

Liturgy should be expressive of two things: the truth of Scripture and the life of the congregation.

By the life of the congregation I don't mean introducing worldliness; I mean the practical living-out of the gospel by the members of the church. If that isn't happenning then it doesn't matter how good your liturgy is.

Of course, bad liturgy or boring service leaders can kill off congregations, since it is without vision and without joy.

I've been in many churches where the service is awful because it reflects the shallowness in their theology and understanding of God. They don't seem to undrstand the blood, sweat and tears of christian living.

How engaged are the congregants in the business of everyday christian living? Are we concerned about discipling? Do the sermons link with that?

You don't rely on Sunday services to keep a church alive. That's where many churches have foundered. Many have also well as killed off the bible, which ends in spiritual death also.

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Robert James Elliott    12 July 2011 11:56pm
David, I enjoyed reading your post. Can you elaborate on what you think should be done to improve Church liturgy to relate it to the "blood, sweat and tears of christian living". We may disagree on liturgy but I am always interested in hearing ideas on how liturgy and church can be made more relevant to people's lives.

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Richard Lambert    13 July 2011 4:47am
I recall reading in 1994 "It should be our doctrine that shapes our liturgy. However it is our liturgy that shapes our doctrine" Was the person who wrote this in a review of a new Church of Scotland book of suggested prayers quoting someone? Is the statement correct?

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Bernie Ions    13 July 2011 10:55am
Michael, for the love of God and people who are starving for spiritual food and for meetings that are challenging, encouraging, easy to invite their peers to and enjoyable to be part of, go and plant a church instead of wasting your time writing this junk. Bernie

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Michael Jensen    13 July 2011 2:25pm
What exactly about what i have written conflicts with this desire, Bernie?

By the way, a point of clarification: by 'liturgy' is often meant two things. 1 - ANYTHING that is done in church 2 - a particularly formal way of conducting a service.

I was using the word in the first sense in this piece.

#22 of 75 top
David Ashton    13 July 2011 7:36pm
I suspect part of the problem is the focus on the word "liturgy". What's the point of church? Is each day connected? Do I arrive at Sunday having something to celebrate or confess? Is there anything going on spiritually in my life, our life, that provides zest to worship?

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Sean Heslehurst    14 July 2011 2:07am
Is this not part of the problem, Our approach to liturgy is sermon centred and not bible centred. Michaels suggestion, as is Hauerwas, is that you pray what you believe and you believe what you pray I believe this is the central issue that was originally posted and worth engagement.

#24 of 75 top
Justin Moffatt    14 July 2011 2:33am
@Bernie -- You can plant a church in the time that it takes to write an article?? :)

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Michael Canaris    14 July 2011 3:10am
Wasn't Rome built pretty quickly IIRC, though? Then again, I suppose Romulus and Remus weren't required to submit a DA.

#26 of 75 top
Grant Hayes    14 July 2011 3:59am
Ah, Romulus: now there's a murderer, and a fratricide to boot! And all without the spur of bad liturgy.

Imagine the hell he might have unleashed had he been within earshot of some sappy hymns!

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Byron Smith    14 July 2011 4:56am
Bernie (#20), given that Michael has previously planted a church, and so presumably has spent at least a bit of time thinking about how to craft services that are challenging, encouraging and rich in good things for all who are present, I am not sure why you have a problem with him sharing some of his thinking with the rest of us. If you have a particular criticism of some part of what Michael has said, then please share it so we can all learn and our times together be improved.

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Justin Moffatt    14 July 2011 5:16am
Thanks for saying that, Byron. I wholeheartedly agree. Please share, Bernie, rather than swiping. Keen for you to share.

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Philip Griffin    14 July 2011 7:02am
Cranmer wrote the Book of Common Prayer, not the Book of Corporate Worship. The principles undergirding his understanding of what we do when we assemble together are vital to us in the post prayer book environment of many churches today. I commend the Doctrine of Christian Assembly, a report that was 'welcomed' by the Sydney Synod a couple of years ago, and does not use the language of 'corporate worship'.

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Dianne Howard    14 July 2011 9:43am
Philip I think this is the paper you are referring to:

Theology of Christian Assembly

Not sure why the link doesn't work. I found it here:
http://www.sds.asn.au/assets/Documents/synod/Synod2008/Theol%20of%20Xn%20assembly-final.pdf

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Eric Henry Wynter Best    14 July 2011 1:10pm
Grant, you wrote, "Therefore,... if a nun founds a hospital, ... merely the sinful thrashings of the unchosen.'
I forget how wacky things are in Sydney when it assumed that a nun is not chosen (sic)! She might be a Buddhist nun, I guess. Actually, I met a bona fide Anglican nun once, she lived in a community in Annandale, I think. Perhaps, you were thinking of one of them?
Seriously though, you're right: Article XIII is awful theology and (in my view) hardly scriptural (unless you reframe it by observing that all good works are driven by an implicit faith in Christ).

I've always highly regarded Cranmer's prayer book: it is such a beautiful, congruent liturgical expression and celebration of the Protestant understanding of justification. Wonderful. I also enjoy the Catholic liturgy of the Eucharist. It too is a clear expression and celebration of salvation history and the Christian journey in and into God.
As thoughtful and elegant as such liturgies are, their weakness is that they don't allow much acknowledgement of or way to explore and celebrate our unique individual journeys, which may not necessarily be able to be subsumed into the framework of our standard narratives. This is where 'emerging worship' gets a look in. It is a breath of fresh air.

#32 of 75 top
Michael Jensen    14 July 2011 11:56pm
@Philip - the synod welcomed the report, but it did not declare it holy writ!

I side with Carson and Peterson on this issue.

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Grant Hayes    15 July 2011 12:02am
Hi Eric @ #31,

Evidently, sir, you are a connoisseur of liturgy. My hat off to that, and also to your iconly inclination, as shared on the recent prayer thread. Strange to say, even this captious caviller is quelled by the gaze of the Theotokos.

Господи, помилуй

#34 of 75 top
Grant Hayes    15 July 2011 12:13am
Eric @ #31,
Seriously though, you're right: Article XIII is awful theology and (in my view) hardly scriptural (unless you reframe it by observing that all good works are driven by an implicit faith in Christ).

C S Lewis (and Aslan) would probably agree with the latter bit in brackets.

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Dianne Howard    15 July 2011 3:55am
Hi Michael,

as an association of Anglican Christians in Sydney we appointed a group of elders to search the scriptures concerning the theology of ‘assembly’. They have presented their conclusions. However I understand you are not in agreement at least in regard to the terminology to describe our gatherings. I do not know if your disagreement extends further.

Because it is a radical change for some of us, who for all our Christian lifetime have never called our gatherings ‘corporate worship’, would you be willing to produce a paper that explains why you use this terminology, and especially in relation to the purpose of gathering.

I think it is important to determine for all of us the mind of Christ on the matter and therefore whether the issue is of importance or not.

Thanks Di

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Donna Green    15 July 2011 6:31am
Michael
I think you have misrepresented the phrase "lex orandi lex credendi". The liturgy is a reflection of the faith already professed. The act of worship is not over the content of doctrine but a reflection. In fact, the ancient liturgies are sometimes used as apologetic tools.

#37 of 75 top
Philip Griffin    15 July 2011 6:42am
@Michael, I guessed you sided with Peterson/Carson, whereas I side with Tony Payne and others. It is not relevant to this post, but I'd like to see a group of us discuss this issue in a spirit of friendship. With many on both sides of this discussion, I am concerned about what happens and doesn't happen when we meet in the Lord's name these days. In my view we are at serious risk of running church in ways that are anything but theologically driven.

#38 of 75 top
Michael Jensen    15 July 2011 7:08am
@Donna, isn't this what I said?

#39 of 75 top
Michael Jensen    15 July 2011 7:09am
BTW, Article XIII is brilliant theology and pure gospel.

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Eric Henry Wynter Best    15 July 2011 12:14pm
Hi Michael. The reason I don't think much Article XIII, is not because I disagree with the truth it seeks to protect, that we cannot look to our own goodness to find peace with God (and, in fact, that peace is realised precisely when we stop looking to ourselves and trust in the reconciliation in Christ that is always already there) but because of what it appears to deny: God's grace everywhere present in and as the everyday goodness and love of people everywhere. This is not to deny the reality of evil and mixed motives. As Augustine observed, the problem is not the lack of love, but where it is directed!
So, my problem with the article, as I read it, is its absolutism, its imperialism, as it suppresses one truth to protect another. And I can imagine that its impact on those who take it at its word would be to distort reality, to encourage a puritan mean spiritedness that refuses to see grace even in the disgraceful.
My money is on the big cat.

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Grant Hayes    15 July 2011 2:03pm
Michael @ #39,
BTW, Article XIII is brilliant theology and pure gospel.

So if an atheist/Buddhist/Sikh/Muslim/pagan/etc. forgives an offence against him, that's merely an illusion of goodness, a kind of mummery. In effect, from God's perspective, no actual forgiveness has taken place. The benighted fool has not chosen the better path; he may as well have pursued vengeance - it's all sinful to the God of Article XIII.

But if a Christian forgives an offence against him, that's the fruit of the Spirit - the Real Thing.

Pure gospel? Maybe so. And if so, then the gospel is is a paltry thing indeed.

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Eric Henry Wynter Best    15 July 2011 3:51pm
A further thought following Grant's post: in my fifty+ years of life, 30+ as a Christian, I cannot say that, if I disregard the higher and lower extremes of the population bell curve (the 'saints' and the 'sinners'), the Christians I have known well have not been, on average, noticeably more (or less) ethical than the non-Christians.
But, of course, that leaves in the bishops.

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Craig Schwarze    15 July 2011 10:11pm
"Cranmer wrote the Book of Common Prayer, not the Book of Corporate Worship. The principles undergirding his understanding of what we do when we assemble together are vital to us in the post prayer book environment of many churches today."

Worship language is not all that common in the BCP, but it *does* exist. For example, in the Order for Morning Prayer, the congregation are required to say (quoting Psalm 95) -

O come, let us worship and fall down :
and kneel before the Lord our Maker.

They also recite the Te Deum Laudamus, which says -

We praise thee, O God : we acknowledge thee to be the Lord.
All the earth doth worship thee : the Father everlasting...
And we worship thy Name : ever world without end....

And in the Order for Holy Communion, the congregation says -

Glory be to God on high, and in earth peace, good will towards men. We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee, we glorify thee, we give thanks to thee for thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty.

So Cranmer certainly believed worship language belonged in Church!

#44 of 75 top
Craig Schwarze    15 July 2011 10:23pm
"Corporate Worship" is not a phrase I particularly use, but I'm concerned about what is being said by those who believe it is not a valid description of church. I think it's been a mistake to reduce Sunday gatherings to a sermon, with a little bit of prayer and singing on the side.

Recovery of liturgy (in a culturally appropriate way) is one means to redress the balance.

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David Ashton    15 July 2011 10:27pm
He may have Craig, but he was working on what was standard for his time. The normal thing was to worship in church, and this had an official and formal language. He had to work within the offically understood boundaries.

He had to use what people would have understood as worship.

As it is, he managed to incorporate the new theology into worship with a style and form that has both elegance and relevance. He could not have produced anything that was informal; that type of worship was not understaood at the time. Even two centuries later those who did not use the BCP were sneered at as Methodists or Non-conformists.

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Craig Schwarze    15 July 2011 11:35pm
David, you seem to suggest that the BCP was not quite what Cranmer wanted it to be, and that he felt unduly constrained in it's production. I'd need to see some evidence before I could accept that view.

"He could not have produced anything that was informal; that type of worship was not understaood at the time."

I believe the anabaptists practised a relatively informal style of Sunday service, though I'm not expert on their approach to liturgy.

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David Ashton    15 July 2011 11:58pm
No, Craig, I was responding to your statement: "So Cranmer certainly believed worship language belonged in Church". He could have hardly done anything else. He obviously wanted it to be real worship - not just formality ot rite - and worship took place in church.

If he had suggested anything informal, or that worship could take place outside the confines of the church, he'd have likely be put into the Tower!

I have been in churches where the BCP has been a joy because the worship leader uses it thoughtfully. Equally, I've been in churches where it kills everything.

Cranmer existed in age where the state controlled the church, and was very strict about religious observance. We live in a time where authority structures are very different, and we have freedom to choose. The BCP at least provides a solid theological structure for worship, and in that sense it should be an excellent teaching aide.

One thing the BCP does do is concentrate the worshippers on the real truths about God. I have been in churches where the worship is about how I feel about God, because both the underlying theology and the commitment to truth are superficial.

One of the most valuable things it has is an emphasis on confession as an element of worship. It's something that contemporary christianity seems to have forgotten.

#48 of 75 top
Craig Schwarze    16 July 2011 2:30am
David, I agree with many of your points

#49 of 75 top
Michael Jensen    16 July 2011 7:20am
@Grant: yes, it is scandalous.

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Bernie Ions    16 July 2011 9:34am
To clarify my tough comments to Michael:
1. Stanley Haerwaus comment is rubbish. It's the kind of rubbish that is used to frighten ANglican ministers into 'towing the line' and not deviating from the established, tried and true liturgy.
2. There is an overconfidence in Anglicanism in the power (and destructiveness) of your liturgy, reflected by SH's comment. It's an overconfidence that a) means you keep on doing the same thing over and over again even though it's incrediably out of touch with most people who are: <50, not into ABC FM, and not into a sit down/stand up/turn around meeting approach, which is probably a fair amount of Australia.
3. Anglican liturgy, no matter how brilliant in theology is done, well, in a really, really boring way. The sheer monotony means the average punter tunes out. I know, the guys trained at college thinks it's majestic, symmetrical blah, blah, blah, but it's killing the people in the pew (especially, particularly, men).
4. Your overconfidence in the power of your liturgy stops you from running meetings in a fresh, inventive, Christ centred, Bible soaked, people loving way. Rather than thinking hard about how to engage people you just rock up and do the same thing, every time.
5. Anglican liturgy is not aloways biblical. For eg There is an excessive emphasise on the law and an over-humbling the sinner. It is one of the ways God comes to us, but not the only way. See the communion service as an example.


B

#51 of 75 top
Michael Jensen    16 July 2011 11:00am
It's no surprise that I disagree here. I don't think you have read past the opening quote and engaged with my piece, Bernie. See my last paragraph, for example. But an explanation is better than a slag-off, anyday.

I am not sure what Anglican churches you have been in lately. In the Sydney diocese, there is simply not (nor has there been for many years) the kind of inflexible use of formal liturgy that you describe and bemoan.

But having said that, I have noticed that informal services are often - indeed mostly - conducted in a way that isn't fresh or inventive or engaging either. And in addition, they don't have any of the good theology, have fewer bible readings, and so on. We are not better off at all, and I don't see pagans loving it either.

I would dispute the assumption that 'it' is killing the people in the pew 'especially the men'. Sappy sentimentality is doing that (maybe Hauerwas isn't talking rubbish after all?) - rambling service leaders, incoherent prayers, interminable notices, music that tries too hard to sound like the radio and so on.

People I encounter are craving the depth of engagement that many contemporary services just lack. I don't think a return to the FORM of Cranmer's services is the answer. (I said that already). Nor do I think his theology is above criticism (interestingly most modern revisions of the prayerbook have modified the language used of/by the sinner approaching the table). But maybe he was on to something:

#52 of 75 top
Michael Jensen    16 July 2011 11:11am
What's really terrible about the 'look mum, no formal liturgy!' model is that it is done in the name of being more attractive to the outsider. But I have no evidence to say that it is, necessarily. You assume that it is 'out of touch' with the under 50s; but actually I know of a number of examples of churches who are succeeding with Gen Y members and are interpollating elements of the prayer-book service in form as well as content.

We need to ask the important theological question: who is the church meeting FOR primarily in any case?

I can't help feeling we have traded the blessing of our heritage for a mess of pottage.

#53 of 75 top
Eric Henry Wynter Best    16 July 2011 3:35pm
Michael you wrote "We need to ask the important theological question: who is the church meeting FOR primarily in any case?"

Some people I know are exploring a 'missional community' model, where, as I understand it, there are two separate kinds of meetings with separate intentions: smaller mission focussed meetings and larger worship focussed meetings. There might be something in that.

There is something very aspirational about the Anglican spirit: I am only fully human to the extent I aspire towards the good, the beautiful and the true. When I attend a service, I do so in the hope that my soul will be moved to open in that direction - graced. This cannot happen simply through the head, but it needs the body and heart. As with any endeavour this requires an honouring of both dynamism and form. Change form = life; remove form = death.

I know I can't speak for Gen Y, but I imagine that its not the external forms of Christian worship that is the real problem (though this does contribute); it is the loss of confidence in Christian religion as a whole as an effective and efficient vehicle for transformation. Its not only the scandals and betrayals of trust. Traditional Christian 'cosmology' is so alien to our dominant understandings of the way things are, you have to be either a little crazy or have risen above mythic literalism to have it work for you; and both require a lot of effort. It's easier to be 'spiritual but not religious'.

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Dianne Howard    17 July 2011 1:53am
I have experienced the full range of ‘liturgy’; from one end of the spectrum to the other. If it is possible to have no liturgy then I’d say I have even experienced that! From God’s perspective, it is always a matter of our hearts and minds being submissive to Him and His word.

What agenda people work from as they gather as Christ’s people must be a love of Christ and his word and a love of one another. The teaching of the word and encouraging one another to keep going as Christians until we die or Christ returns is central. And the fruit of that will be seen, for God’s Word is powerful to save from the wrath to come.

Surely we gather to build up others in that word, whichever way we may choose to organise for that to happen. We must constantly strive to understand his word to know what pleases our Father for all of our lives, including our gatherings. We must not impose rules or styles or insist on our way being better for all, so long as Christ’s word is dwelling richly amongst the people.

We meet to ensure that everyone keeps enduring in what is an age of suffering and difficulty with many a temptation to give up living for Christ.

Each of us is to worship day and night all week for we have the Spirit indwelling in us and we have the truth – Jesus Christ.

cont...

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Dianne Howard    17 July 2011 1:55am
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Colossians3

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Grant Hayes    18 July 2011 2:08am
Michael @ #49,
@Grant: yes, it is scandalous.


Scandalous? I'd call it blinkered, petty, and mean-spirited.

But if you want to suggest a qualitative link between the 39 Articles and the News of the World ...

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Michael Jensen    18 July 2011 4:26am
@Grant - well of course you would, wouldn't you?

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Grant Hayes    18 July 2011 4:55am
Pure ungospel ;^)

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Mark Henderson    18 July 2011 6:05am
'some Anglicans of a more Anglo-Catholic stripe have evoked the Latin phrase lex orandi lex credendi - ‘the law of prayer is the law of belief’ – in order to assert the priority of the act of corporate worship over the content of doctrine. That is, the way a church prays is determinative for what a church believes.'

Yes, this is poor theology on the part of Anglo-Catholics - even Pope Pius XII expressed reservations about this appraoch in his 1947 encyclical 'Mediator Dei', stating that the saying could just as validly be turned around, so that the law of belief is actually the law for praying.

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Eric Henry Wynter Best    18 July 2011 6:24am
Church is not an assembly

I have just read the linked document that uses 'assembly' as the dominant term for what we do together. I am quite uncomfortable with this, not simply because assembly has less than happy associations, such as assembly of God, or worse still, school assembly, but because the term assembly is so much less than what we're doing, or, at least, attempting, at church.

An assembly is a meeting of individuals, or better, individual egos. No matter how we dress it up with Christian talk, Bible readings and singing songs, it is still a gathering of individual egos. By ego I mean the sense of oneself as a project: to be braver smarter, wittier, more righteous, good provider, etc. In going to church I will become a better person, cement my identity as a 'saved sinner', or I won't fry when I die. So, instead of non-religious egos we now have Christian egos. All well and good and important but is that all we are doing when we are doing church? Are we just adjusting beliefs and ambitions?

To me, the religious instinct has something to do with an intuition of and nostalgia for a lost connection to life / self / other. We call this transcendent, implicit, unity or wholeness, God, and it is this that actually is directing the show. Its a bit like those show rides where the ghost train car has a steering wheel, which you think directs the the car but in fact does sweet F A - this is how our egos look on the other side of an intimation of the divine.

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Eric Henry Wynter Best    18 July 2011 6:26am
Continuing...

What else was the Protestant understanding of justification than a surrender of the spiritual ego project common amongst the religious of that time? Unfortunately the need to be special is so pervasive and sneaky it will enter by other doors, such as the belief that we are 'the chosen / elect" or that we are preserving the true gospel against the mass of pseudo-christians.

I love the prayer book term, Holy Communion. This is about recollecting a connection deeper then our isolated ego projects. In intimations of the divine, my ego retreats, like a star before the sun. This is why we kneel. And genuine shame, genuine humility, which arises with the sense of the presence of God, is the soil of true faith, hope and love. I'm sure that Cranmer had this instinct about God and about worship - it permeates his services like incense. And wherever a heart is moved to compassion, wherever an ego is softened or cracked open by the slightest movement of the sacred breath, God truly is served.

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Grant Hayes    18 July 2011 9:07am
And wherever a heart is moved to compassion, wherever an ego is softened or cracked open by the slightest movement of the sacred breath, God truly is served.


Amen!

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Tom Barrett    19 July 2011 3:47am
Michael, I found your article's chicken-egg story hard work, but this sentence got me cheering:
What we do when we meet together forms a regular habit of response to God which in turn forms good habits in the life of the individual Christian.

Fantastic. And Hauwervas's quote illustrates (exaggerates) the opposite - that inadequate corporate response (heartless/mindless/compassionless/thankless) will cultivate bad habits in the life of the individual Christian.

I think that (perhaps understandably on an anglican forum) many are getting the wrong idea when the word "liturgy" comes up despite Michael's clarification at comment #21. Maybe for those with memories of excruciatingly boring childhood pewsitting it's impossible for the word not to have a narrow and negative meaning. But as Michael mentioned in comment #51f, too often "we don't have liturgy" is intended to mean "we don't follow a set prayer book structure" but the reality is "we don't think much about what we do when we gather".

I've been struggling for years with the tension between the vertical and horizontal aspects of the church gathering. I've come to see the "corporate worship" label as happily encompassing both, but it seems there are those who disagree... I'll have to dive into those long synod reports.

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Robert James Elliott    19 July 2011 4:59am
Tom's comments are ones I can understand. I have a love/hate relationship with liturgy. I love the sense of the sacred and tradition yet I also hate it when it is just going through the motions. Per Dianne's comment, I do not think we do enough of the "build up" of each other. I am not sure what the answer is though.

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Tom Barrett    19 July 2011 5:05am
But Robert I think what you mean is "I have a love/hate relationship with prayer book services" :)

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Eric Henry Wynter Best    19 July 2011 5:31am
Robert, I think intentionality is very important. There is a long tradition of going to mass with an intention. But we can also have collective intentions. It took me years of church going to cotton on to the sense that holy communion was a dramatisation of (the dominant Christian narrative of) the individual and collective human spiritual journey, from hearing God's call to divinisation. It would have been nice to have been told why we do our intercessions here and not there, etc. But I do not see that worship need be restricted to any particular, historically sanctioned order. We can be creative, but creativity requires intelligence and intention, and, for collective worship, that intention needs to be, itself, collective. And, such creativity involves some work and some pain.

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Dianne Howard    19 July 2011 7:10am
Hi Tom

My husband and I have been thrown back to the scriptures time and time again on this issue. We have concluded that the ‘vertical/horizontal’ schema distorts the way the bible describes God’s relationship with his people and the consequence of this for the 'one another'. We have found it refreshing to ditch the ‘arrows’!! Happy reading.

cheers Di

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Sandy Grant    19 July 2011 9:54am
Michael, you replied to Bernie...
I am not sure what Anglican churches you have been in lately. In the Sydney diocese, there is simply not (nor has there been for many years) the kind of inflexible use of formal liturgy that you describe and bemoan.

I am not sure whether Bernie wants to clarify this for you, but I know which Anglican church he has be attending - let the reader understand - and this means I am in a position to say whatever I want to say to Bernie about the manner of his initial comments to him personally.

However in regards to his comments at #50 above, I think there is an element of truth in his point 2 - a more liturgical approach is definitely not everyone's cup or tea, or perhaps their can of Red Bull! That said I think while I might overestimate the power of liturgy, Bernie might be underestimating it. And while I might not realise the degree to which it is alienating to some under 50s, Bernie may not realise the extent to which some in younger generations appreciate it (when well done), or are at least fairly neutral about it (i.e. can learn to like it).

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Sandy Grant    19 July 2011 10:03am
Re. Bernie's point 3, and MIchael's reply in #51, at the church in question, I also think the liturgical elements are sometimes done in a boring or dreary or uncreative way. And I am a fan of some common liturgical elements! Typically there is a confession of sins and a creed (or a scriptural affirmation of faith like Col 1:15-20) most weeks, sometimes a general thanksgiving or the Lord's Prayer.

There is an encouragement of lay leadership, and while there are some great efforts put in, both by lay leaders and clergy in service leadership, sometimes the leadership of the liturgical elements is wooden, boring, over-egged, over-explained, or unhelpfully predictable in the context. Sometimes by a lack of preparation. Sometimes by a lack of experience and sense of feel.

Training appropriate variety is quite hard. But the senior pastor in question - let the reader understand - must take ultimate responsibility for it not being done better, and should do better in the training and in-servicing of the service leaders.

Re. Bernie's 4, I think I would like to see our assemblies run in a - to quote him -
fresh, inventive, Christ centred, Bible soaked, people loving way
and that this can be done with some liturgical elements, though it is by no means biblically essential to have those elements. It certainly requires better training, better default orders of service with variety (for when leaders are too busy), and better preparation and experience to do well.

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Sandy Grant    19 July 2011 10:12am
I shared some of my thoughts on the use of creeds in church - pros and cons, how to do it better etc. - over on solapanel some time ago. By extension many of the comments can be applied to other liturgical elements.

[The link takes you to the third and final of my posts, but in the quirky way of blogs, the third post links to the first two, whereas the first post does not link forward, and so this is the easiest place to start.]

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Sophie Yeomans    20 July 2011 12:37am
As a 22yr old 'gen-y' I would like to express my surprise at how helpful and edifying liturgy has been at our church.

I think it has only started recently and has been so natural that I hardly recognised it until now. Gone are the days when our MTS' struggled through a 'funny', engaging story-like intro...

now it's straight to an opening reading, prayer & reflection (which is not the sermon, nor is it the 'official prayer time') but designed to begin the 'idea' of the night. The worship is chosen specifically to build, again, on the main point of the night... and is often introduced by the part of the bible it was based on (gives me confidence that this piece of praise & worship did not come from man's brain, but God's heart).

Then the sermon, prayer... and at the end we come back to the same opening reading & reflection. The whole night is so cohesive. There is no doubt what the main point is. And it doesn't rely on the MC or minister's wit or stories... It's all about God and listening to what he has to tell us.

Vote 1 for thoughtful, natural, God-glorifying liturgy.

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Tom Barrett    20 July 2011 3:50am
Sophie: It's great to hear that your church is doing so well in this area. One clarifying question - in your services do you often say stuff together (one definition of "liturgy") or are the prayers etc pretty much said by those up the front?

(Although liturgy has a broader meaning (just to flog that point once more), it's been pointed out to me that "saying stuff together", while culturally weird, is a valuable way of making sure the congregation doesn't become just an audience.)

Sandy - just wanted to say how much I'm admiring your humble and forward-looking response to criticism, regardless of how it's delivered. Something I'd like to learn to emulate.

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Bernie Ions    20 July 2011 4:29am
Is 'Why bad liturgy can make you a murderer" a true statement, or a rhetorical device to arrest attention?

If the latter, is he (big Stan) the only one allowed to make such statements?

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Michael Jensen    20 July 2011 6:21am
Don't forget, Bernie, the twinkle in Stanley's eye is clearly in evidence in his little statement. It isn't dismissive, or directed at anyone in particular.

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Sophie Yeomans    21 July 2011 1:01am
Tom: thanks for you comment. liturgy is still such a foreign term/idea for me (having never grown up with the prayer book) so that's another aspect I hadn't considered. As I think about it, we have had congregational prayer sporadically for a while now. Perhaps once a month there will be a prayer of confession or creed. Certainly not every week. Don't have an opinion about this yet though :)

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