AUDIO
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Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
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A couple of months ago, Sandy Grant wrote an excellent post on forgiveness over at the Sola Panel. He essentially asked a question - are we, as Christians, obliged to forgive those who harm us, even if they do not repent? This is something that has challenged me my whole Christian life, and my opinion has swung back and forth on the issue.
Sandy seems to have come to a conclusion. He refers to the book “Unpacking Forgiveness” by Chris Brauns, and writes -
Its critical insight is that despite what so many blithely claim, forgiveness is not unconditional! Brauns begins with this simple but profound principle: "God expects believers to forgive others in the way that he forgave them" (p. 44)...The key verse here is Luke 17:3: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him" (NIV, my emphasis). So we do not offer 'cheap grace' to people who refuse to acknowledge sin. Of course, we may still act in loving and kind ways towards them, though they be our enemies. Yet we are not obliged to pretend all is okay.
The issue is particularly important to me. One of my ministries is to those who are separated and divorced, and time and again, the issue of forgiveness comes up. People ask me if they are obliged to forgive their ex-spouse, even though that person has shown no remorse for the suffering they have inflicted.
Usually I’ve said yes, they need to forgive, and that forgiveness is a journey, and that they might not feel it right away, and it doesn’t matter what the other person is doing, it only really matters what is going on in their own heart and so forth. In hindsight, I’ve confused forgiveness, which is a transaction involving both parties, with a general feeling of charity from the offended towards the offender.
But I found Sandy’s argument persuasive, and it will change how I approach this issue. Forgiveness can only take place where the offender has acknowledged their sin and repented. It makes no sense otherwise, and is not real forgiveness. Indeed, we all know there is nothing more sanctimonious than having someone say, “Oh, I forgive you” when you haven’t asked for it, and don’t feel like you’ve done anything wrong.
There is an important point to add here, though. As Sandy wrote, “Of course, we may still act in loving and kind ways towards them, though they be our enemies.” I would go further and say that we are obliged to do so - to be gracious and loving and kind to those who have hurt us, even if they have prevented us from forgiving them.
This is a hard calling, especially when the offense has been great. But it’s the pattern of our Lord, who loved us even while we were His enemies, and who holds out the offer of forgiveness and reconciliation to all who come to him in faith and repentance.
In some of my research, I've been attempting to see how forgiveness unfolds through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus following Luke-Acts.
1. Jesus life: he taught (e.g. Luke 6 and 17) that the willingness or capacity to forgive (as God forgives) is an essential practice in what he meant by loving enemies. Nurturing the inner desire and commitment to forgive is the first, crucial step of the process.
2. Jesus’ death, the inner desire to forgive becomes a public commitment in the prayer that God will forgive the enemy (Lk 23, also Acts 7). It is the second step towards forgiveness. It may be many years of desiring to forgive and praying for God to forgive before the actual moment of forgiveness arrives. Throughout the process, the naming and forgiving of wrongs against us must be somehow held together.
3. Luke demonstrates they belong together by narrating the risen Jesus’ naming of Saul’s wrongdoing as the precise moment of forgiveness (Acts 9). Significantly, it is the risen Jesus who forgives both Peter and Paul, and whose preaching in Acts is marked by their witness to his resurrection / the forgiveness of sins.
As those who have been forgiven / have forgiven know: complete forgiveness is a resurrection act.
Jesus (Luke 23:34) and Stephen (Acts 7:60) both pray for the Father to forgive people who are portrayed as being totally unrepentant. This doesn't seem to fit with the argument on forgiveness that you've advanced above. How would you integrate their examples into your position on forgiveness?
But I find it interesting that neither Jesus nor Stephen are actually saying, "I forgive you", they are saying, "Father, forgive them." I'll admit, I'm not sure I really understand why they pray that way, but it seems to be something different to personally forgiving someone who has offended you. Perhaps it is a prayer for the salvation of their persecutors.
for a long time this has struck me as really important. I blogged on it here.
The only thing I wanted to highlight is the importance of adding 'subjunctive forgiveness' to 'conditional forgiveness'. That is, there is a still a job to do by the person who has been wronged even when they wrong-doer is unrepentant; namely, give up the desire for vengeance, such that were the other person to repent, they would be ready to forgive.
It's crucial, since it's what stops the un-dealt with issue from turing into bitterness.
However, I think his definition of forgiveness played into it - I can't remember exactly, but it was basically that forgiveness is not claiming vengeance. There are still repercussions and the law still has to do its thing (so we can't stop proceedings on a criminal offence). I hope I haven't mangled that too much - hopefully someone else who was there can clarify.
There was a distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation though - you can't have reconciliation without the other party's repentance.
Or is it more on us - a roundabout way of saying, we will forgive others in the same way you have forgiven us?
@Andrew Katay - that is very much like what Al said. Your post hadn't appeared when I posted mine.
First,we can see the causes, and consequences of resentment and unforgiveness.
Second, Job learned three cures for resentment.
Third,the lesson of Job's life is this-It doesn't matter who has hurt you or how long you've been hurt, or how deeply you have been hurt, God can make the rest of your life, some of the Best Yours of Your Life, if you're willing to forgive, and let go of resentment, and release the offender...
We must learn to forgive, not simply overlook or tolerate, but to Forgive...
For our willingness to forgive others, has a direct bearing on God's Forgiveness of Us...We must learn to forgive, not to stop at restoring the attitudes of love, but to go on to rebuild if posssible or appropriate,the broken trust...
We must learn to forgive, for in Releasing the offender, we are making a healthy choice, and we are doing or attempting to do 3 things:
1.We are releasing ourselves.
2.We are attempting to restore, if humanly possible or appropriate the relationship-this may not always be possible or appropriate!
3.For the renewal of Community.
Job42:12-"Then the Lord blessed the last part of Job's life even more than He had blessed the first."
Wouldn't you like that for your life?
The big problem in not being prepared to forgive if the wrong-doer is repentant is bitterness, which will shrivel your soul.
It seems to me equally important to avoid both problems!
First,you are right that if you don't have a preparedness to genuinely forgive that it will shrivel your soul-but worse, unforgiveness and resentment will eat away at you like a cancer! Job 5:2-"Resentment kills!"
Second, we often find ourselves in situations, that we need to forgive with out repentance from the other person...Not fair! Absolutely!!!! However, what does the Bible have to say on this issue-Job 21:23-25 "Some men stay healthy till the day that they die. They die happy and at ease.Others have no happiness at all. They live and die with bitter hearts.
Further: Job 5:2 - "To worry yourself to death with resentment would be a foolish, senseless thing to do." Even though we may want to hold our hurt and resentment close and stew for a while...
Still further:Romans 12: first part verse 19-"Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God;s wrath. For it is written, 'It is mine to avenge. I will repay,' says the Lord...So take a long term view of this issue for your own sake, your own health and your relationships sake including that of your relationship with God...He will take care of things in His time!
Andrew, absolutely. I think we are on the same page on this one.
@Allan, the point is that God only forgives those who repent. Brauns suggests our forgiveness should be same - it should follow God's pattern. Luke 17 supports that idea.
Unfortunately, I don't believe you've presented the book of Job in a very accurate light. There is no suggestion that Job's problems were a result of "unforgiveness", and there is no suggestion in that text that learning to forgive led to the blessings at the end of Job's life.
I would broadly agree with your sentiment (that forgiving is a good thing to do), but I don't think you can use the scriptures in the way you have to get there.
Nowhere do I say that Job's problems were a result of unforgiveness...
Second, in the text, we see what Job did in Job42:10-"After Job prayed for his three friends, the Lord made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before."
When did Job's misery end? When he got revenge? No!
When he got even? No!
When did he get relief from his misery? After he forgave his friends...He prayed for them...He released them...He let them go...Even though they had hurt him...It's hard to resent somebody and pray for them at the same time!
We see also when Jesus was speaking in Luke 6:27-"But I tell you who hear me, Love your enemies. Do good for those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who mistreat you." Why? This way you're in control. When you hurt people back, you're simply retaliating. You're being controlled by them.
You're not acting, you're reacting.
Romans 12:17-"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. If it is possible, as far a it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."
And Job 11:13-"Put your heart right, reach out to God, then face the world again, firm and courageous. Then all your troubles will fade from your memory, like floods that are past and remembered no more."
Forgiveness is the Key, which unlocks the Door of Resentment, and the Handcuffs of Hatred...It breaks the Chains of Bitterness,the Shackles of Selfishness...Job42:12-"Then the Lord blessed the last part of Job's life..."
In what way does the life of job show us the "cause and consequences" of unforgiveness? (I am not discussing resentment here)
Where in the text does it say that Job forgave his friends? Job got relief from his misery after he repented and submitted himself to God.
Job said:"You think you are better than I am and regard my troubles as proof of my guilt." He gets the impression"I'm worthless."
Third cause:What people do to us...Job19:19-"Those I have loved most have turned against me." For that reason, we rarely resent strangers...That's why resentment is most common in families! Continue next post with consequences...
First:Resentment is Unreasonable...It's illogical. It's irrational. It doesn't make sense! Resentment may not be illogical, but very human, in the first instance...However, it is illogical to continue to resent!! In Job 5:2-"To worry yourself to death with resentment would be a foolish, senseless thing to do." It's foolish.It's a waste of time and energy.
Ecclesiastes 7;( also states: "It's foolish to harbour a grduge."
Second negative consequence:Resentment is Unhelpful...Job 18:4 says,"You are only hurting yourself with your anger!" That's as illogical as resentment is.
It always hurts you, more than it does the other person. You are only hurting yourself with your anger.Bitterness is not worth the cost!
Third negative consequence:Resentment is Unhealthy...Job21:23-25-"Some men stay healthy till the day they die. They die happy and at ease. Others have no happiness at all.They live and die with bitter hearts."
Resentment is the single most unhealthy emotion you can have.It hurts you!
It causes all kinds of problems in your life...Job 5:2-"Resentment kills!"
I hope this helps with the causes and consequences that are found in the book of Job, for he was naturally a resentful person for a while, who learned to overcome and find a cure for this deadly poison...Strangely, he learnt to forgive, despite all that he had gone through...
I quoted Luke 17:3 to myself: “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him", just as has been quoted in the article by Craig. I deduced that we do not have to forgive those who are not repentant. However that did not solve for me the problem of my resentment and bitterness towards the perpetrator. A better way forward seems to me to be to forgive them (for the sake of my own health and to avoid resentment and bitterness growing) but to also protect myself from the harm they can do to me by limiting my contact with them. In the case of serious harm done to me by somebody who is not repentant, this would involve having nothing to do with them whatsoever.
This is consistent with Matthew 18:15-17:
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established'. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
I do not know categorically whether we need to forgive those who are not repentant. I have not resolved this issue.
Continued…
We are not under any obligation to have contact with such a person. As a general argument, we have totally free choice as to who we associate with. In their amazing literary work titled “Boundariesâ€, Cloud and Townsend talk about the need for boundaries to keep the bad stuff out that would otherwise harm us. Deciding to have nothing to do with somebody who has harmed us seriously and who is not repentant is one such boundary to protect us in the future.
I think the real test of whether we have resolved an issue with a person who has harmed us, who is not repentant, and who we have now decided to have nothing to do with, is whether we can pray to God that He would lead that person to good things and work whatever change He chooses in their life. I think that it is healthy to avoid such an unrepentant person AND to pray in this way. Beyond this, we are not obligated to ‘fix’ that person or ‘set them straight’. It is between that person and God.
Continued…
I suspect that the idea of just forgiving people who are unrepentant without any consequences leads to the same harm being perpetrated in the future by the same unrepentant people. This is not resolution and this is not what God intended.
I am not advocating a combative church environment in which members are all just waiting for each other to make a mistake and not be sorry for it so that they can avoid each other. Obviously the underlying assumption is that members like each other; they enjoy each other’s company and would only choose to avoid contact as a last resort. Having said that, I do see it as a convenient solution to irritating church members who pretend to like us but are obviously hiding hatred in their hearts of some form towards us which is betrayed by their spiteful remarks. I would avoid such people for my own sake without even trying to point out their heavily-disguised sin to them. Life is too short to spend time with such people.
Lastly, most Christians love to hear a genuine apology and most Christians will greet it with exuberant grace. This is the best way of all.
Forgiveness is not the same as restoring a relationship...
The Bible teaches, restoring the relationship and forgiveness are two different things...Forgiveness is instant...Trust must be built over a long period of time.Forgiveness takes care of the damage done. It just lets the person off the hook.You let them go scott free-as Jesus did with us on the Cross and through His resurrection...It doesn't guarantee that the relationship will be restored...It may be...But it may not...It may be, but it may be different to before...Those are two different issues.
Forgiveness is your part and mine in reconciliation, when you forgive the offender who has hurt you.But for a relationship to be restored,the offender has to do three things that are totally unrelated to forgiveness: One, demonstrate genuine repentance. They have to show that they're genuinely sorry before the relationship can be rebuilt. Genuine repentance, and that means a change in lifestyle...Two, they have to make restitution whenever possible for the damage done...Three, the offender must rebuild your trust by proving they have changed over time...Those are totally different from forgiveness.
Do you understand the difference between trust and forgiveness?
So forgiveness starts by making a choice.Forgiveness is not conditional...
What is the alternative?
Bitterness and resentment? In such a fraught and discordant area, replete with misunderstanding and accusation – How can one accurately assess the legitimacy of any such claims, let alone determine an appropriate course of action – without forgiveness as a necessary first step.
Nelsen Mandela is one of the most highly regarded people in the world today, precisely because of his unqualified forgiveness for those who were responsible for decades of oppression and his own incarceration. His example enabled a peaceful transition from Apartheid to a truly Democratic South Africa – something unthinkable just a few years before.
Rob
(Craig, if it’s not an inappropriate question, I am curious as to your qualifications for such a ministry.)
Regarding my "qualifications" - none, except personal experience of a painful divorce. My ministry is very informal - I meet up with people (mostly guys) who are going through separation/divorce and encourage them and give them advice, and I also occasionally run a support group using published material. Most of the people I've helped in this way have been enormously appreciative.
Why do you ask? I felt disapproval in your question.
I think christians do not share a precise definition of forgiveness, so discussing how and when to apply it will be a bit of a mess.
I think the question you are asking is (something like):
What is the process of mending a wounded relationship to the point where neither party is holding anything against the other?
Notes:
- you can hold something against someone internally (bitterness) or externally (manipulation - you hurt me so now you have to do what I say) or both
- just because one party is hurt it does not necessarily follow that the other party is to blame. But the relationship still needs mending while one party is holding something against the other.
- this doesn't mean the relationship will be the same one it was. Relationships never stay the same anyway.
- the process may never be completed. eg in the case of death or departure of one party.
- there may be points where the process stalls.
Would that be a fair representation of what you want to discuss?
Nice to see that someone reads a blog you write and actually interacts with the material and even is persuaded to change their minds. In this case, it is Brauns who gets the credit.
I strongly urge people to read his book. He really does "unpack" forgiveness, including all the issues here and more.
Craig has done a good job unfolding some of that material. I think his reply to Roger's early question about the prayers of Jesus and Stephen was on the right track. Those prayers express a willingness to forgive, and ask God to bring forgiveness about, before any sign of repentance from the offenders. Yet neither Jesus nor Stephen say they have forgiven the unrepentant.
Definitions are important for clarity in such a conversation, especially to avoid cross-purposes.
Yet as Andrew notes, this distinction between willingness to forgive and actually forgiving is important. It is a matter of justice. And it is a matter of patterning our forgiveness on the way God forgives or, in cases of unrepentance, does not forgive.
Just to repeat, as Craig has expressed personally, Brauns makes it clear there is no place for bitterness or personal vengeance, and he spends as much time, if not more, on overcoming those temptations, and on conflict resolution, as he does on establishing the important distinction between the offer of forgiveness and actual forgiveness itself.
Read his book. It is biblical. It is practical. It does not shirk the painful issues.
The aftermath of a marital breakdown is often characterized by accusations, denials and an overall poisonous atmosphere. That one should hold back forgiveness, in such a situation, until an apology has been received is to my mind unhelpful. The perception of slights by one or both parties, often does not match with reality.
Not for nothing do we call someone ‘big’ when they accept an unfair situation without complaint, particularly when it is for the benefit of others.
Personally, I would be loathe to give advice, other than ‘this worked for me’ type of thing.
I just question whether one can be loving and charitable, whilst simultaneously refusing to forgive – to me they’re incompatible.
But I could be wrong.
Rob
I can hold the theory that one can both withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant and yet be loving and merciful towards them rather than bitter or vengeful. I honestly do not think they are logically (nor scripturally) incompatible.
But in practice they must often feel close to incompatible.
Yet even in practice I don't think they have to be. Chris Brauns book contains some tragic and also heart-warming stories of forgiveness, and in some cases willingness to forgive unrequited by unrepentance. These stories are properly footnoted.
Perhaps one of the most notable is that of Scott and Janet Willis, who lost their 6 youngest children in a car accident caused by an unqualified semi driver, who got his licence through the corruption of their state's governor.
You can read about it here on Chris Brauns' website, including their response when the governor offered some form of public apology.
His book really has some wonderful stories of willingness to forgive.
The language of 'with-holding' forgiveness is not helpful, and the last line of my original comment illustrates why: forgiveness is a resurrection act - which is the gift of new life from God.
I cannot complete forgiveness - even as I nurture the willingness to forgive (from Jesus' life) and pray for forgiveness for enemies (from Jesus' death) - by my own efforts / works / decision. We have got stuck on this very point (IMHO) because we don't reflect enough on the meaning of resurrection.
God-in-Christ, through the power of the gospel, can act in either the victim to forgive or the offender to repent - but either way it is God's gift and God's action. That's why the language of 'witholding forgiveness' takes us down the wrong track.
I agree
Not really, though the process of mending relationships is a worthwhile topic. I'm concerned with the question in my post - are we obliged to "forgive" those who do not repent?
I feel the tension you identify, though I think Sandy answered it well.
My own experiences certainly strongly drive the sort of advice I give.
I think another crucial question is whether Jesus intends that the perpetrator in Matthew 18:15-17 is forgiven by those shunning him or her for his or her lack of repentance:
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established'. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
I don't know what the answer to that question is. Is it like, "We forgive you, but stay away from us until you repent"?
Some points to consider:
1. I do not accept that not forgiving someone automatically leads to bitterness and a twisted person. I do believe that when someone fails to repent, the hurt brother or sister is sorely tempted to let their disappointment & hurt become bitter & twisted... That is a sin which must also be repented of. There is a massive difference between being someone who is upset, hurt & pained, & someone who is bitter & twisted. The latter ends in a willingness to never express forgiveness until retribution (not simply repentance) occurs.
2. Some of the comments on separating forgiveness from rebuilding trust have been helpful, in my opinion. However, it is possible to so stretch the process that forgiveness becomes meaningless. When God forgives us, he restores us to a right relationship. He can do that (a) because Jesus paid the cost & (b) God knows our hearts and thoughts & knows whether we are genuine or not. When we forgive, we want a restored relationship, so we trust that our pain will be healed by God's grace & we know Jesus took the penalty for that sin, but we cannot fully know the other person. Therefore the very act of forgiveness involves a willingness to begin to trust the other person (even though it may be guarded for a while until we are certain that the other person is more trustworthy). The relationship will then be restored. ...cont'd
3. I know that there are some Christians who have forgiven greatly, even without the repentance of the one who sinned against them. To my mind, they are wonderful examples of God's grace in action. I also know that in Acts 4 there were some wonderful examples of God's grace in actions as some believers sold properties & laid the whole proceeds at the apostles' feet. Such examples are stirring & marvellous & encourage our generosity. Yet such actions were not expected of all Christians. Acts 5 shows those who tried to do it, but lied about giving the lot. Many others just gave what they could. In the area of forgiveness, there may be some mighty examples of those who excel, but my understanding of passages such as those mentioned above (Luke 17:3, Matthew 18, & also 1 Corinthians 5:13) says that the normal requirement is to forgive when your brother/sister repents. That is the bare minimum. Yet to call it a bare minimum makes such a gracious act, flowing from the cross of Christ (including his resurrection), into an act of works. ...cont'd
I said:
You said:
I don't think we can consider this question without considering the end point of the process, in which case the question becomes:
Can with-holding forgiveness be a valid part of mending a relationship?
Or are you asking whether unforgiveness is an acceptable end-point?
In either case, forgiveness / unforgiveness needs fleshing out.
How would you describe those states for the situation after a messy divorce?
I think forgiveness in the biblical sense can only happen when there has been repentance. When a person says they forgive someone who doesn't ask for it, I don't really think forgiveness has taken place. Being willing to forgive is different to forgiving.
I guess the difference between myself and the "forgive everyone" people is that I believe forgiveness genuinely involves a transaction between two people.
When some people talk about "forgiving" someone, they actually seem to mean, "don't hang on to bitter feelings". I agree we should let go of bitter feelings, but that is different to forgiving - it is a different idea.
It's interesting to read the posts from the "forgive everyone" crowd, because they all focus on the self - you forgive so that you wont be bitter, so you will be happy etc. You forgive to release yourself.
By contrast, I believe that forgiveness is other person-centered, and that you forgive to release someone else.
One of the consequences of "forgive without repentance" is that it turns the victim into the offender. This happens so often in Christian circles. Someone shares about a great wrong that was done to them that they still feel down about, and they rebuked (implicitly, perhaps) for not forgiving. I think this is very cruel, and it puts the burden of guilt on the victim rather than the offender, which is simply perverse.
When I was still in the "forgive everyone" camp, I got to the point where I would advise people to forgive their ex-spouse, but not to tell them in case it caused a fight! It seems ludicrous now, and it is plain that what I was really telling people was not to harbour bitter feelings in their heart, and it had nothing to do with a transaction between two people involving hurt and blame and release.
So forgiveness really occurs at the point of some restoration (to some degree) of the relationship which has been broken by the sin of person A towards person B. Forgiveness is nothing like, "We forgive you, but stay away from us until you repent." Forgiveness is more like, "Let's clear the air now that you've truthfully acknowledged how you have hurt me."
For what it's worth, Craig, I shouldn't have come out swinging in my post which got deleted on your Cage Fighter thread. I didn't speak the truth in Christian love but I hacked into the topic thoughtlessly and ended up stinging you.
I still can't work out what you mean by forgiveness / unforgiveness. Or repentance for that matter.
You call repentance / forgiveness a transaction between two people.
Could you describe that in more detail?
What would the relationship be like before the transaction? And after? What words, actions, feelings would be involved?
I forgive you, mate. All gone.
Some good questions, and I don't feel up to the task of answering them, to be frank. But I will give it some thought and see what I can come up with.
I think the clause "to be reconciled to that person" is the key difference. I don't believe it is possible for an honest reconciliation to take place after a major hurt if the hurt is unacknowledged. It doesn't come down to lack of good will - it comes down to a lack of honesty, with two parties pretending to agree about something significant when they both know they don't...
Regarding post #52, could you define "moral liability" and "honest reconciliation"?
By the latter I'm guessing you mean something like "able to deal with each-other without bitterness or manipulation".
"All this unforgiveness just doesn't fit right with my spirit."
I agree with Allan. I'm really conflicted about this topic in spite of what I have already posted. If you look at an example like Stephen the martyr in Acts 7:60, it appears that God is beckoning us to a higher plane where we are secure in His love for us so that we can extend His love to others who have sinned against us, even if they don't deserve it because they haven't repented.
I think that Stephen did forgive the perpetrators. Is he really going to say, "God, please forgive them even though I haven't"? It is increasingly looking to me that forgiveness takes place when it originates in the victim. If it is not accepted by the perpetrator, then it has still taken place.
I think that there are still challenging questions to answer about what Matthew 18:15-17 means in light of what is my growing conviction that we are still to forgive if there is no repentance from the perpetrator. Maybe Matthew 18:15-17 is talking about the prevention of degradation of truth in the church by expelling those who do not recognise their sin.
Continued…
It seems that the following scenario is lob-sided where the church rightly encourages a victim to forgive a perpetrator who is not repentant but the church doesn’t expel the perpetrator for their unacknowledgement of the truth of what they have done. It seems that the act of forgiveness doesn’t restore the relationship. What restores the relationship is when the perpetrator acknowledges their sin and repents to change direction away from it.
God mercifully forgave us by paying our debt by shedding his blood – he took merciful action for us for people in a state of rebellion.
We are to desire the greatest forgiveness for our enemies, which is that they receive the forgiveness of God.
di
It sounded odd, because I wasn't aware that Mr Woods had offended me personally, or that I was in a position of being able to forgive him.
Do you think we can forigve someone who has wronged somebody else?
I don't believe that requiring a person to repent before we forgive is putting emphasis away from our need to be willing to forgive. If that were the case, then why the need for the teaching in Matthew 18 to go & seek out the person who has wronged you. If you have forgiven them already, then it may well be that you can sit quite comfortably in your circle of forgiveness & not try to seek for reconciliation, which begins when either you go & tell them what they have done, or when they repent & admit their error, thus allowing true forgiveness.
@ Andrew (#56) To me, Jesus saying "Father forgive them..." & Stephen praying that way is much more like the prayer of Moses at Mt Sinai after the golden calf, asking God to spare his people rather than God destroying them all to start again.
I still want people to forgive, but it takes 2(+) to forgive, while only 1 to be willing to forgive.
First,what do you think it means to forgive? People often feel they can't forgive because they don't understand forgiveness.Someone may have told them that forgiveness is forgetting-and they know-especially if they have been through a painful divorce, relationship breakdown, abuse or whatever-they just cannot forget.However, the truth is, forgiveness doesn't mean you have to pretend you don't remember the fact that something very, very painful happened...No one could forgive if that was what forgiveness meant...
Forgiveness is instant...Forgiveness is a healthy choice for you and your relationship with God and relationship with others!
The second question I ask:Who are you trying to punish by choosing not to forgive?
Perhaps some of you or those you minister to, are holding onto every little or painful hurt from your marriage, former marriage, relationships? You hide it, keep a stockpile of it, so that you can, perhaps, use it as ammunition at some future date...Matthew 18:32-35 we see what happens if we don't forgive! Our refusal to forgive can always be traced back to a misunderstanding of our own need for Forgiveness and Grace from God!
In the light of this, Peter asks what’s the go if any brother sins again and again against me. The answer given, forgive ‘seventy times seven’. Jesus then explains that this is because we have been forgiven much. Therefore we must forgive our brothers from the heart or we will bear the judgement of God. The motivation or reason for forgiving others is because we are forgiven.
I am not wanting to ignore the importance of repentance for the sinner but want to emphasise the need for forgiveness on the part of the one wronged and our willingness to be wronged.
I suggest it is very easy to become a little ‘god’ to people and demand their repentance for our benefit rather than being a merciful and compassionate brother who forgives from the heart, knowing how much one has been forgiven.
cont...
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11)
In the light of the death and resurrection of Jesus the emphasis seems very much on because we are forgiven so forgive one another.
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. (Colossians 3)
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you. (Eph 4)
di
Jesus said: If your brother repents, forgive him.
But does that mean that we must not forgive him, if he does not repent?
Paul Dixon is a US pastor who has a bee in his bonnet about folk who read a positive Scripture statement and say the negative applies. He says that unless the Scriptures say that it is true in the positive and in the negative, we should not assume it is.
So he says that when Mark 16:16 [I know, I know] says that the person who believes and is baptised shall be saved, we cannot assume that a person who does not believe and is not baptised is condemned unless the Scripture says this. Fortunately that passage does give a reverse statement, and tellingly it does not say that a person who is not baptised is condemned, but only that an unbeliever is condemned.
I don't think Jesus is telling us not to forgive people who don't repent, because elsewhere he says he won't forgive us if we don't.
I think he is telling us to forgive our repentant brother, without telling us not to forgive our hard-hearted brother.
I think this is a very hard view to argue. Jesus includes an absolute, followed by a conditional -
"...rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him..."
Clearly the forgiveness is contingent upon the repentance, and the implication is that if the brother does not repent, nor can he be forgiven.
Imagine the following statement -
"...ask for the password, and if he answers correctly, let him in..."
Would you argue that this is saying let the man in, regardless of whether he gives the correct password or not? Of course not!
But Jesus also says that we must forgive others if we want to be forgiven and that we must forgive others because we have been forgiven.
I often joke about my brief period in the ministry and say that the church got rid of me because they felt that they needed me like a fish needs a bicycle.
The people who treated me shamefully never apologised, but I had to forgive them to be able to move on, even though I suppose that they never repented of their actions. If they did, they sure didn't let me know.
I think you could be giving some of us an out that we don't need, and which could lead to us feeling justified in not forgiving others.
I'm not sure if I qualify as someone who is disagreeing with you, and I'm not sure if this is the venue for a detailed exegetical argument.
But first I'll quote the verse in full and make a couple of simple observations:
Luke 17:3 (ESV) Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.â€
1. this is not the only - but is one of the briefest - discourse on forgiveness in Luke-Acts, so should not automatically be given greatest weight. (e.g. Lk 5:20ff; 11:1ff;)
2. it is concerning - first and foremost - a (Christian) brother... although I don't think it has to be limited in its application to other Christians, that is certainly the primary sense in the passage
3. the direction of the teaching is an expansion, not a limiting, of forgiveness. It is hard to get to "this is the limits Jesus puts on forgiveness" (e.g. an unrepentant wrongdoer) from the general sense of what is going on here (I am reinforcing what Dianne@63 has already pointed out).
4. Much earlier in the thread you prioritised "prescriptive" over "descriptive" passages. This is questionable - as principle and in application. Traditionally reformed theology has prioritised Jesus' death over Jesus' life / teaching, which kind of reverses the order here.
I'm really glad that you've raised this topic. Whatever the balance of opinion on this thread (which is not a definitive indicator of truth in and of itself), you've raised a very important issue which does need to be discussed because it points to other issues such as protecting oneself from harm from an unrepentant person.
For myself, I have identified two key sets of verses, Matthew 5:12-15 and Matthew 18:32-35 like Colin quoted at #61, which are relevant to this topic. Unfortunately never of them gives a definitive answer either way to the question at hand about whether we need to forgive those who don't repent.
For myself, because I don't have the spiritual understanding of the Scriptures to resolve this issue that way (which is the best option in the absence of definitive verses - I think Colin is on the right track here), it comes down to 'risk mitigation'. God is basically saying in these verses that I will go to hell if I don't forgive the person who has sinned against me. I can't afford to think that God means the person who has sinned against me and repented - and be wrong - and be cast into hell.
This topic raises a lot of issues such as do you have to talk to somebody who has sinned against you and hurt you, who is unrepentant and who you have forgiven? I think not.
Continued…
Actually, I can't yet tell the difference between your position and the "forgive everyone" crowd.
They have a different definition of the word "forgiveness" but the process of reconciliation seems similar to yours.
Before the offender demonstrates repentance you agree that the wounded party does well to let go of whatever might cause bitterness and move to a position where they are "ready to forgive". It sounds like the "forgive everyone" crowd calls this forgiveness (or perhaps internal forgiveness).
What you call the repentance / forgiveness transaction they might describe as external forgiveness.
Naturally the process can be much more complex and different cultures have different strategies for getting past the sticking points. It's hard to know what is the point of with-holding forgiveness without some detailed examples.
That sounds awful, painful and probably horrendous - what you described about your experience in that church. I'm glad that you're on this blog - probably for longer than the few short months I’ve been here.
It’s so true what you said about needing to forgive the unrepentant in order to be able to move on. It makes me wonder why I’ve been entertaining the idea that we don’t. Until ‘you’ forgive them for their wrongful action against ‘you’, for which they haven’t repented, it’s like there’s an invisible attachment between ‘you’ and them based on what ‘you’ feel they owe ‘you’ for hurting ‘you’. That attachment is poisonous because it attaches ‘you’ to a person who has proved themselves to be poisonous by virtue of their sin against ‘you’. By forgiving them and breaking the attachment, ‘you’ can move on and away from the poison they have brought into ‘your’ life through their sin against ‘you’.
Really shooting from the hip here. Probably missed the target of truth. The word “poison†is a bit strong but accurate in some cases.
Again - I am not one who thinks we should forgive everyone unconditionally.
But surely the pattern of God-in-Christ is that he always takes the initiative in forgiving and keeps inviting wrongdoers to repent and receive forgiveness this side of the eschaton? This seems to be pretty close to the heart of the gospel to me... Rms 5:8 etc...
That - and the idea I keep raising that complete forgiveness is really a (resurrection) act of God - even in the so-called 'easy' cases where there is genuine repentance.
I know the forgiver benefits, but do not forget that in the process of forgiving someone, the hurt person forgoes any of the opportunity to pay-back. To my way of thinking, often forgiveness involves a double hurt (one of the original hurt & one of not even seeking compensation for the hurt, and certainly of no vengeance). God was wronged by our sin & then also paid the debt himself... double hurt.
That is why forgiveness is so hard, & so full of grace, because not only have we been forgiven, but we also rely upon the loving grace of our God to heal our hurts & fill us with his love so that we will happily forgive & turn the other cheek.
As Jesus told Simon the Pharisee when the prostitute showed love & care to Jesus over the lunch meal in Luke 7, if you have been forgiven much, you will love much. The connection between love & forgiveness is very strong. We will be much more willing to love Jesus & other people when we better realise how much we have been forgiven. We will also be more willing to forgive when we realise how much we have been forgiven.
If we are narky in forgiving others, it is usually because we think we have been hurt more than we have sinned against God & others.
cont...
It is helpful when we struggle to look at all that scripture says on a matter.
I'm thinking about this verse at present:
"Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation."(Luke 4)
di
We have heard some people express the problems that flow from either camp when abused. The other day I had an experience which reminded me of an abuse which is now a common problem from the "forgive everyone" arguments: Our church's small car park is in a very parked-out area, so we restrict parking to those who use our buildings. We have a very nice notice to place on the cars who offend, which reminds them that they should not be parking there & says we are praying for them to find another parking place next time, & we have noted their number plate. One driver returned the note to the letter box with a scribbled note "God forgives all". It may have been a nice repentant driver, or it may be the more usual comment along the lines of "It doesn't matter what I do against you, God forgives all, & therefore you should too." The abuse is that by expressing easy forgiveness to people, they no longer feel there is accountability for sin.
Outsiders agree - and are appalled at the thought that God does not forgive everyone.
I'm sure you've heard this question before, Di. What do you say to someone who asks how a loving God can send anyone to Hell? Surely if He is loving and generous and kind, he should forgive everyone?
I don't think you are sorry at all to ask that question, Allan...
I will answer it if you answer a question of mine - are there any sins in your life (against God or others) that you are unwilling to repent of?
I don't think that at all.
But I do think that someone else might be in that category and might use what he has said as an out.
And I don't think that washes with God.
In Hosea we are reminded that God is not like people in these matters.
How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart recoils within me;
my compassion grows warm and tender.I will not execute my burning anger;
I will not again destroy Ephraim;
for I am God and not a man,
the Holy One in your midst,
and I will not come in wrath.
In the face of sin we see the loving merciful initiative of God, which we should imitate in dealing with others.
di
God is the righteous judge of all the earth. We are all sinners who have earned condemnation but received grace (and forgiveness instead).
We cannot claim to be righteous judges like God is. Likewise God is not a forgiven sinner.
That leads to the second truth in this passage.It’s a very chilling, disturbing truth...2.The unforgiving become the unforgiven.
This is not an isolated teaching-to name a few...Matthew 5:7: “God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.â€
Matthew 6:14-15 “For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.But if you do not forgive others their sin, your Father will not forgive you.â€
Mark 11:25 “But when you are praying, first forgive anyone that you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.â€
I am afraid that unforgiveness and bitterness and resentment become like bedsores/cancer.It’s eating the healthy relationships in your life. And one of these days if you are not careful, you won’t know it until somebody comes to you and says, “I’m done.I want out of your life now.I want you out of my life.I don’t want to be with you ever again.†Is it worth the price eternally or from a Relationship point of view with God and others?
For as long as we are unable to forgive we keep ourselves chained to the unforgiving.We give them rent-free space in our mind, emotional shackles in our heart, and the right to torment us in the small hours of the night.
Craig is keeping it real by seeking to understand what the Scriptures say about the question in this topic. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, all the Scriptures that I've quoted already are ambiguous in relation to this question or do not give decisive answers to this question. Unfortunately, one of them I quoted wrongly as Matthew 5:12-15 instead of Matthew 6:12-15, which was not much help to anybody. There was a deep crease in my Bible that hid the "6". That's my excuse!
We have to figure out what the Scriptures say. Matthew 6:15b gives pause for thought in relation to Craig's argument, however it is still ambiguous. Together with other verses such as Matthew 18:35, it presents the idea that people who God consigns to hell are not forgiven. Therefore God does not always forgive, apparently. I believe we will make progress if we look at how to deal with a sinning brother (who is unrepentant) in Matthew 18:15-17 who, Jesus Himself says should be expelled from the church. This has implications for whether we are supposed to forgive this unrepentant brother. I haven't figured out whether we're supposed to or not. I need your help! (After that, the question is how Christians should deal with unrepentant non-believers.)
If you guys want to explore these Scriptures, I will chime in, but otherwise, this topic is too big to handle.
I have found this scenario is very pertinent for people who have been abused as children, with the adult denying it. One such person I know was reminded of a situation after many years, & then was told she was wrong in not forgiving the perpetrator who kept persistently denying it.
Do we also tell starving people to forgive their corrupt leaders & officials & we ought to forgive them too, so therefore if we have forgiven them, we should not seek justice for the oppressed? If true forgiveness is extended, then no further repercussions are forthcoming... or are they?
Is it fair to say I forgive you, & then to seek justice (not vengeance)? (For those who think this is vengeance in another skin: Even the Old Testament laws (eg Exodus 22:1-15) sought adequate restitution costs without leading to vengeance.
"Do we also tell starving people to forgive their corrupt leaders & officials & we ought to forgive them too, so therefore if we have forgiven them, we should not seek justice for the oppressed?"
This is exactly the kind of thing we need to talk about in the context of this thread because this quote from Robert is precisely what is happening in the world today, which no amount of foreign aid from governments or NGOs like World Vision or Compassion is going to fix, in and of itself.
Personally, if somebody really hurt me bad and didn't repent (ie. acknowledge fault and apologise), I believe that I need to forgive them in order to severe the ties with them that resentment and bitterness creates. I have also come to the conclusion that God is asking me to do this via Matthew 6:15 and Matthew 18:35. However I would most definitely cut off the relationship and deny them access to me via relationship. This is to protect myself from future harm (ie. prevent the same problems occurring again and again) and has the added consequence that it may cause the perpetrator to reconsider whether they want to acknowledge their sin.
The other example Robert raised about child abuse (including child sexual abuse) is equally as important as the quote above and probably closer to home for many people.
Continued…
Also, how often is Matthew 18:15-17 enforced and the unrepentant perpetrator expelled from the church? Or how often is this idea expressed from the pulpit as part of the modus operandi of the church?
These are my off-the-cuff impressions of the church in general. I could be wrong. I know I sound critical of the church but I'm not. I'm thinking about what is a way forward because the "forgive everybody" merry-go-round without additional teaching like Matthew 18:15-17 is, in my opinion, not working in the church in general.
A very tricky scenario when he is released from gaol.
How do you act when he tries to comes back to the home group that he was previously a part of, still denying that he did any wrong?
You must accept that he has served his time.
But the rest is really confusing for me.
Di
Just as God forgives, bearing the cost, so as we forgive we also may be called on to bear a cost in the situation.
eg death of a spouse (run over by a drunk person); loss of job and superannuation; loss of home; grief; fear; sickness; and the ongoing constant struggle to forgive.
Di
Interesting point. Yet after reading the Boundaries books many years ago, and having a welfare background, I wonder if Christians are too quick to label someone suffering the horrific consequences of various kinds of abuse as 'not forgiving' their offender, especially when the offender has not repented, and is still, in fact, dangerous!
So how do we apply 'subjunctive forgiveness' to really tough situations where domestic violence is in the home, and the wife and children are at risk? I've even heard of some ministers that recommend the woman staying there as it shows her 'submission'! (1 Corinthians).
I worked at the Department of Community Services in Child Protection. I was involved in cases of such horrific child sexual abuse and physical abuse and psychological torture and manipulation, by such *sick* people, that I still shudder.
If we teach forgive without reserve, forgive when they have not repented, 'turn the other cheek' (which I understand is more about honour than actual physical violence) then we are teaching little kiddies to just put up with it, wives to just submit to the Domestic Violence (and possible murder of her kids), and ever other *foul* thing I saw back then?
Alan, I see this thread as a much needed corrective to a type of spiritual imprisonment where victims of terrible, awful abuse have been made to feel guilty for not being best buddies with the person that repeatedly, maliciously raped them every night when they were children, and would do it all again if given the opportunity!
When pressure to forgive enables vicious abuse, sin, and crime to continue... is that in the spirit of the New Testament?
continued...
So, even though Andrew has let go of the desire for vengeance, isn't that still short of forgiveness? As someone else said above, carrying pain and hurt can be different to carrying bitterness and hatred.
Dropping vengeance is still short of restoring relationship, which is what I take forgiveness to be all about.
After all, can we really say "I forgive you" if we don't want to hang out with the person? Is there really a difference between reconciliation and forgiveness, as some have tried to define it? If one's mindset is not to carry around bitterness but still impose important and necessary boundaries on the relationship, then are we really talking about forgiveness or something else?
The average Aussie seems to see forgiveness as reconciliation... and I think I agree with them for once.
Saying "I forgive you" but not being willing to hang out together and be mates is just so much semantic gibberish.
So I'm firmly in the "no repentance, no forgiveness" camp, for the sake of victims, not enabling further sin, and scriptural integrity.
This is a great reminder to love your enemies, which is very different to forgiving your enemies... which is what this is all about.
I think Andrew's comments about summarise the attitude "Father, forgive them". For what do they need more than anything other than to be reconciled to their Heavenly Father? And if that happens, then one day they might even be able to truly apologise to us, and after some work, ultimately be forgiven and truly reconciled to us.
I appreciate you giving your support to some of the points I raised above. I think that a lot of your comments put a very bright spotlight on areas of this topic that need further exploration, such as by an 'Anglican Theological Hit Squad'. The book you mentioned, "Boundaries", by Cloud and Townsend, is an extremely powerful, transformational book which deftly dispenses with a lot of myths surrounding this topic - especially the myth that Christians should be doormats for other people's sins.
I was also intrigued by some of the comments you made, such as:
"Saying "I forgive you" but not being willing to hang out together and be mates is just so much semantic gibberish."
It’s pretty hard to argue with that. I spent an hour trying to argue with it, then I realised that I’d failed. You’ve certainly thrown a heavy-duty curve ball with those few words.
Predestination aside for a moment, is it true to say that God doesn't forgive us unless we repent?
G'day my sceptical rival! ;-)
This is very common! Some of these sick puppies have been interviewed by Psychiatrists and confessed to being proud of the fact that their pre-abuse Grooming of the family was so good that the parents still wrote to the offender in gaol, and regularly apologised for the horrible 'lies' their child told about them that got them into so much trouble. They brag about these grooming achievements. They're good at what they do!
The grooming is so thoroughly prepared that we call them "Career Paedophiles" as it is a wonder they can hold down a day-job with the effort that goes into preparing the abuse. You'd think they were God's gift to your Sunday school, the best buddy of the minister, and the most passionately spiritual person you've ever met.
I really feel for those rare cases where some innocent bloke has somehow been maliciously framed, because I for one would require a complete back-down from the Court and confessions of framing from the victim to believe the guy was not now a life-long lying paedophile.