My Church has a big ANZAC Day service the week before ANZAC Day. The heads of all the defence forces and Police as well as the GG and politicians are invited. It is a chance for us to publicly thank our servicemen and women and pray for them.

When I went to a smaller church we had 'Rescue Sunday' where all the rescue services were invited and publicly thanked and prayed for. I think it is important to acknowledge and thank these people for their service and I have not seen it distract from the gospel.

At Castle Hill, we had a minute silence followed by a prayer thanking God for the sacrifice of those fallen in war, and for the safety of those currently serving in the defence forces. I thought it was highly appropriate that we took two minutes of the 75 we spent together as a church to do this.

Ooops...that last comment was from me. I was logged in wrong.

Good Morning Craig

I couldn’t help but notice that you set up a dichotomy between those churches that celebrate ANZAC day and those who focus on Jesus. And I am saddened that you claim that you only have an hour or two a week for church – that is your claim. I wonder how many of your congregation members did not go to church last week – because they went to ANZAC Day commemorations instead? Your dichotomy is off course, entirely false. There are many churches that grapple with how to interact with the community at large – and create a link so that the community at large can hear of Jesus in a meaningful way to that community.

The question of to what degree churches should commemorate national days is an entirely valid question. You can clearly go to far down that track and loose focus on Jesus. To avoid commemorating national days, however, is to shut yourself off from the community at large and be deemed irrelevant, and isolationist.

As for ‘Abide with Me’ often, but not exclusively sung at military commemoration events is also the Hymn of the FA Cup final and The Challenge Cup (English Rugby League). Rudyard Kippling’s ‘Recessional’ is the ANZAC Hymn. ‘Abide with Me’ is a prayer for God to remain present with us throughout life, through trials, and through death. It is seemingly one of the few Christian songs known by many in the larger community after ‘Amazing Grace’.

To Be Continued

Continuing

So the question is ‘What is the relevant interaction points between the Christian Community and the larger Australian Community and how do we as a church bridge the gap?

I agree with Kevin's comments. I do not see how commemorating events such as ANZAC Day, Mothers Day or Fathers Day are inconsistent with the Sunday Service being "all about Jesus" as you put it. On the contrary, these events often illuminate themes such as sacrifice, love, selflessness, courage and humility which are entirely consistent with the Gospel and what Jesus is about.

Hi Craig, I think it is helpful to acknowledge such occasions of cultural importance, like Anzac Day.

We can do this in our church meetings, without having the agenda of the day dominate the normal agenda of our gathering around Christ to hear him in his Word, to pray and to edify one another.

For example, on Sunday, we used the DVD provided by Anglican Media and the Archbishop, chosing the little interview with Colin Bale about Changi (less than 3 minutes), we ensured we had prayers of thanksgiving for past and present men and women in military service, for peace, and for those affected by losses in war. (See here for resources.) At our more traditional services, we sung at least one hymn appropriate to the occasion. I also wrote my Minister's Letter on the scriptural background to Abide with Me.

So as with Al's comment, it took less than 5 minutes (given we would have sung hymns anyway) of time to acknowledge, yet in a way that did not seem tokenistic, but brought a Christian perspective to bear.

You are right that there might also be occasions to critique our cultural celebrations, although I'm not sure the day it self is to time to let fly with both barrells.

On Mother's Day, Father's Day, and yes, around the time of Valentine's Day, I think the occasions can simply be marked by wishing people God's blessing and by sensitive prayer on the topic being included in the wider prayers.

Here are some of my efforts...
Prayer for Mother’s Day

Our great God and loving heavenly Father,

We thank you that you provide families for us to live in,
and especially for our mothers,
who have loved and cared for us.

Thank you for the benefits we have received
from their example, their instruction,
and their often selfless and patient service.

Help us to follow the example of Jesus,
who cared for his mother Mary,
and to honour our mothers appropriately
at all stages of their lives.

We pray for those separated from their mothers
and for mothers without their children for various reasons:
as the God who promises to comfort his people
like a mother comforts her child,
be their comfort, and ours,
now and always, though Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.

PRAYER FOR FATHER’S DAY

Almighty and ever-living God,
On this Father’s Day,
we acknowledge that all earthly fatherhood derives its name from you.

So we thank you for setting us in families
and for the joy that so often brings.
We thank you for fathers who have
provided and protected, guided and disciplined,
and in so many other ways, loved us for our good.

Many of us also thank you for spiritual fathers in the faith:
for those who first brought the gospel to us.

We pray for fathers to have willingness to encourage their children,
strength to discipline, tenderness to love,
wisdom in teaching, integrity in example.

We pray for those unable to be fathers,
for those without their earthly fathers through death or distance,
and for those whose fathers have not been all you intended for them.
Thank you that you reveal yourself in the Bible
as the father of the fatherless and the defender of widows;
that you promise to set the lonely in families.
Be the strength of all such people in their times of need.

We thank you that through faith in Christ,
we are your children by adoption.
We thank you for the eternal security and significance that gives us.
We thank you that your Holy Spirit enables us to call you
“Our Father in heaven.”
Help us always to rejoice in that privilege,
through Jesus Christ our Lord,
AMEN.

Near Valentine's Day (or during a series on Song of Songs)

All praise and blessing to you, God of love, creator of the universe,
maker of man and woman in your own likeness,
source of blessing for all married life.
All praise to you, for you have created
- courtship and marriage,
- joy and gladness,
- feasting and laughter,
- pleasure and delight.
May your blessing come in full upon all who are made one in marriage.
May they know your presence in their joys and in their sorrows.
May they blessed until they are parted by death,
and come at last to your eternal kingdom,
through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Loving God, you are merciful and kind,
So we pray today for those who hurting or lonely
through widowhood, divorce, or abuse,
for those struggling with unhappiness in marriage or singleness.
Where repentance is required, may it come willingly;
Where forgiveness should be offered, may we forgive,
as in Christ, you have forgiven our sins.
Be the strength and comfort of all such strugglers.
May we all experience your generous love,
and depart from here, renewed and hopeful. Amen.

I think it is important to acknowledge and thank these people for their service...

I agree - I just don't think church is the right place to do it!

I couldn’t help but notice that you set up a dichotomy between those churches that celebrate ANZAC day and those who focus on Jesus.

I didn't really - I said "let's make it *all* about Jesus".

One of my concerns is that it is all a bit gimmicky. When you see "Anzac Day Meat Pie" (a hypothetical) you don't think "It's cool the Meat Pie company is supporting our veterans". Instead you think, "Marketing".

It's the same with churches celebrating commemorative days. If we only do a couple of minutes then it seems trite and agenda-laden. But the more substantial we make the commemoration, the more likely it is to distract from the gospel.

If we want to acknowledge Anzac Day, the best thing to do would be to encourage people to attend the parade, buy Legacy badges etc.

In my opinion, Craig is right. The church should not be a mouthpiece of the state.

Regarding Anzac Day, this is a very contentious topic. All I am going to say is that I believe war has been romanticised.

@Craig,
I think the sort of thing Sandy and I mentioned is a long way from marketing. Perhaps if the church put on a special event and advertised it around the community your point may be valid - but in some circumstances special events may be entirely appropriate. The 2 minutes we spent acknowledging ANZAC day was in no way gimmicky or agenda-laden and it didn't come across as trite. I think it depends on what is done and how it's done, not simply that it's done.

@Andrew,
I don't see how pausing to remember those who have died in war, and praying that God would bring peace, is being a mouthpiece for the state. Is there anything inherently ungodly about doing those things?

If anyone is interested Ben Myer's did a short critique on what he calls the "cult" and "romanticisation of war".

http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/2010/04/anzac-day-and-god-of-war.html

Thank you Craig,

You may not have intentionally set up a dichotomy between churches that celebrate ANZAC Day and those who focus on Jesus, but by means of the Style, Tone and Level of your article, that is certainly the impression I gained.

My main point is about bridging the gap between the wider Australian community and the gospel? ANZAC Day and other commemorations could detract from the gospel if you allow it too. But occasions such as ANZAC Day needn’t detract from the gospel, and they shouldn’t detract from the gospel.

With respect to ANZAC Day – it resonates with Australians because the day not only reminds us of the futility of war, but also of the vulnerability of life. In times of vulnerability many Australians still turn to the Christian Church for an understanding of what is going on. Many local RSL sub-branches seek out Christian ministers to help them with their ANZAC services. This is worth reflecting on. Why is this so, especially in the post-modern era where the default position is nearly always secularism?

I am reminded of Simon Peter (and I admit I take this verse slightly out of context) “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life.” (John 6:68)

TO BE CONTINUED

CONTINUED
The context of an intentional worship service, where the bible is read, its content is proclaimed and explained, and public prayers are said, is, in my opinion, an entirely appropriate place for a commemoration. Incidentally, I see a lot of veterans – the vast majority of them are under the age of 40 – and “Abide With Me” resonates with them.

So, I really do think the question out of this debate is ‘What are the relevant interaction points between the Christian Community and the larger Australian Community and how do we as a church, bridge the gap?’

Craig, on this occasion I think your reasons for saying church is not the place are fairly weak and undeveloped.

You said we only have an hour or so for church and let's make it al about Jesus.

Then people responded that it was quite possible to acknowledge the occasion in a fairly brief way.

So you claim it is gimmicky - without examples.

Yet people had also testified that it could be done in a meaningful way and not tokenistic, yet without dominating the gathering or over-shadowing the gospel.

Andrew claimed that Anzac Day is "very contentious". I am surprised by how little it is contentious, certainly compared to when Alan Seymour's play The One Day of the Year was written (60s) and being studied in schools (70s & 80s). Indeed, as I alluded earlier, there could be a little more critique about the current Aussie love of it.

But Christians are in a position to offer an engaged and positive critique and interaction, even by the content of our prayers about it.

I imagine some hard core, old school C of E churches commemorate the Queen’s Birthday.

FWIW, our Cathedral is among them (or, at any rate, finds some use for that day.)

As a believer who is also in the military I love the fact that we mention ANZAC day in church.
ANZAC day is not a glorification of war - it is a recognition of the sacrifice the people who went to that horrible place.
Personelly I think we should be praying every Sunday and some times have spots on specific areas that they can be prayed for.

Unfortunately the military is a very specific mission field and unless you have access to that by certain avenues you will never know what members of the military go through.

Allowing them a way to show that God cares for the ANZAC's too will show that there is another place to go to that bridges the "gap".

As to mothers/fathers days - they are a very gimmicky day but in some aspects if we celebrated our parents better we wouldn't need these days.

I am going to leave valentines day out of it.

Another hymn often used on Anzac Day is God of our Fathers. It's refrain is

Lord God of hosts, be with us yet;
Lest we forget, lest we forget.

Yet it is far from militaristic or romanticising war. For example, verse 3

Far called our navies melt away,
On dune and headland sinks the first;
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Ninevah and Tyre!
Judge of the nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget.

Quite an expression of national pride and confidence being humbled by war.

And the final verse...

For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard;
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding calls not thee to guard:
For frantic boast and foolish word
Thy mercy on thy people, Lord.

What an amazing verse. And more thoughtful soldiers really seem to know what it means. Once again, far from promoting a trust in military action to sort everything out.

Sadly at local Anzac Day services they generally only sing the first couple of verses of this hymn or Abide with Me. It's churches that sing the extra verses and bring the fuller perspective those verses bring!

Craig,

Just to split hairs for a moment: there's a big difference - at least in my mind - between "commemorating" (remembering) and "celebrating". I agree we shouldn't "celebrate" ANZAC day, but we should "commemorate" ANZAC day. Hope that distinction makes sense.

I think your reasons for saying church is not the place are fairly weak and undeveloped.

Quite possible - I admit I'm flying a bit of a kite here! I've been surprised to see people respond quite strongly.

This is partly inspired by my observation of another "special" church day - Christmas. Year after year you see the same people show up, and they hear the same sort of message, and sing exactly the same songs. Part of me has wondered what would happen if we just did "regular" church on Christmas day - perhaps it would make a deeper impression.

When people talk about acknowledging Anzac Day in order to connect with the community, I'm a bit sceptical. I doubt it wins us many brownie points. Part of me thinks we should just do our thing on Sunday.

Good Morning Craig

I once heard Bishop Peter Brain (Armidale) say that good ministers should be good at exegesis, both of the Bible and the People in the areas that they served.

Part of our discussion relates to how we engage the community at large. However, this is not a matter of “brownie points.” It is a matter of how we, who are in a relationship with Jesus, live our lives in our communities. The manner in which we live our lives should be a natural witness. When it comes to ANZAC Day, it is a matter of providing the wider community with some pastoral support by the means of public prayer. This is a form of community engagement. What are the outcomes – well, we have had an opportunity to be an “ambassador for Christ”. (2 Corinthians 5:20)

A good ambassador is “situationally aware”, that is to say, has a good degree of awareness of the community in which that ambassador is placed. As for conversions etc, I believe that the Holy Spirit ultimately has something to do with that.

TO BE CONTINUED

CONTINUING

One of the other participants in this debate stated “Personally I think we should be praying every Sunday and some times have spots on specific areas that they can be prayed for. Unfortunately the military is a very specific mission field and unless you have access to that by certain avenues you will never know what members of the military go through.” If you want to know about this “mission filed” visit www.defenceanglicans.org.au. This site is very enlightening.

I’ll stay away from the “Christmas Day’ comment, because it’s not pertinent to this ANZAC debate. We acknowledge ANZAC Day in its own right. We do so as people who are members of another community – the people of God. This gives us a unique engagement, as we have the opportunity of showing gratitude, and praying for those more closely affected.

So back to my sustained question, ‘What are the relevant interaction points between the Christian Community and the larger Australian Community and how do we as a church, bridge the gap?’

A provocative article and a demonstration of a line of Christian thinking that, whether intentionally or not, pushes the institutional church further from society at large.

It is part of Anglican liturgical worship to give thanks for the saints, and among them are many Christian servicemen including a number who gave (and continue to give) their lives on military service. It is entirely proper for Christian people to observe Anzac Day, in an appropriate fashion and avoiding jingoism and antiquated imperial values such as those in 'The Recessional' which is, may I suggest, the archetypal Anzac hymn.

If the underlying question is whether the church should glorify war, that is an entirely different question. Anzac Day does not do that. Despite a growing military uniformed presence that I personally regret, Anzac Day has always been to commemorate and give thanks to the fallen and to those who served.

If I may briefly mention that an Anzac Day observation in a church I attended was followed by a discussion with a Vietnam veteran on whether killing in war was forgiveable. It was a sobering reminder of the guilt feelings carried by many veterans and the opportunity for Christians to affirm the universality of salvation.

Part of me has wondered what would happen if we just did "regular" church on Christmas day - perhaps it would make a deeper impression.

The deep impression would be one sort of like "that minister is absolutely out of touch!" & "Bah humbug!" I think it would cut more of the connections we are trying to make.
In one of my congregations the people hate Mothers' Day as a crass commercial Americanism, but celebrate Mothering Sunday instead.
As a padre to a RSL Sub-branch I give up one of my Sunday services each year (it is run by someone else on that day) in order to march in a parade & take the opportunity to have a 3-5 minute sermon to the thousands who turn up for an ANZAC service. Why should I spurn such opportunities. & at the earlier service before it we encourage our veterans to wear medals, & we say the Ode.
The ode ("They shall grow not old...") was written before ANZAC Day, by (Robert) Laurence Binyon, who was a Quaker & a pacifist. He volunteered to work as a hospital orderly in France during 1915. It is not pro-war, but pacifist. The ode is the 4th verse of his poem "For the Fallen".
Let's not cut off connections with "tribes" (an awful term in my opinion) in our community.

It is heartening to see people who will not forget the military.

ANZAC day is the one day we have a great window that opens to us to relate to the members of the Australian Defence Force.

I go from Sunday to Sunday and hear about different fields of witness that needs prayer and to sadly not hear about the military.

@ Craig - maybe you should go to an ANZAC sevice so you can get an insight into the people who serve in many different ways and what they have been though.


## I do acknowledge that I have probably been to churches so far that do not have the same exposure to the military as others.

Greetings, I agree with the comment about the distinction between commemorate and celebrate; I would add another "c" commentate. At our church we had a minute's silence, said the ode, heard the last post; and then had a stimulating sermon about a Christian response to war looking at pacifism and the Just War theory, followed by 20 minutes Q&A;, then "Abide with Me". I thought this was a great way of honouring the day, as well as examining the Christian position.
I think it is particularly important to engage with these significant days since they are alternative sources of "secular spirituality" for the community.
The advertisement of this day may have contributed to several new families being present at each service.

@ Craig - maybe you should go to an ANZAC sevice so you can get an insight into the people who serve in many different ways and what they have been though.

Thanks for the suggestion Ron, but if you read through my comments, you will already know that I have a great appreciation for the military.

G'day Craig and all. Sandy, I take it you are sharing those prayers for us to use, too.
On Sunday I attended the first Christian Anzac service I can recall attending, but I do have a crook 57 year old memory. St Philip's at Kingswood ran a service that was focussed on Christ. The message was from Philippians, but there was an acknowledgement of Anzac Day.

We watched Peter Jensen's interview with Colin Bales.
We reminded ourselves that 120 thousand Australians have died overseas in service of this country. We reminded ourselves that the two great wars hugely impacted Australia, so that in every street, at least one in two houses had lost a relative, and almost every household had suffered loss of a neighbour or friend.

I think the service was done in a Christian way, and needed to be done.

With all the folk religion that we get at services led by those with a low view of the Bible and the gospel, such as the services I've attended led by combined churches or the RSL or schools, it is important for those who do have a high view of God's Word to give us guidance on how we should remember in a Christian way, because surely we should.

In a previous year, Phillip Jensen reminded us that in The Recessional <i>lest we forget</i> means </i>Let's not forget our God</i>.

David and others, you are welcome to use or adapt the prayers I shared. That was exactly the purpose. And although I have forgotten now, I am sure if you did source criticism, you would find ideas from other people's prayers before me (apart from the Scriptures).

I think Ian overstates the case that The Recessional or as I knew it God of our Fathers has antiquated imperial values, although it does perhaps have the assumption of the empire as its context. However I certainly gave some evidence above from the lyrics above that expressed a realisation of the limits of force of arms and a recognition that even the nation or empire being served might be under judgment in a situation of war, even just war. And David is plainly right that "Lest we forget" in this hymn's context pushes far beyond remembering the military to remembering our Maker.

This debate seems to be coming to an end, with the weight of opinion seemingly saying – it’s a good thing to acknowledge ANZAC within Church. Actually, there are two threads – the public ANZAC service (whereby we should continue to support and maintain a Christian influence as best we can) and a within the Church service with a component acknowledging ANZAC. This is, in my view, a good pastoral thing to do – to remember and to pray.

We also had a comment about current defence force members. I would really commend to you www.defenceanglicans.org.au - there are plenty of ministry stories that lead into praying for this kind of ministry.

Do acts such as acknowleding ANZAC day diminish the gospel? In my view they shouldn't, and they needn't! To the contrary, I am reminded of Hebrews 4:16 “Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and grace to help in time of need.” And 1 Peter 5:7 “Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you.”

In an analogous manner, we have a pattern for bridging the gap between the church and the wider Australian community. Certainly, this is not the sole or complete manner. When display trust in our Lord Jesus, we are living in a pastoral manner, and we are able to offer pastoral support to the community around us.

Of course, ultimately we would all like to see people turn to Christ, and this should be our prayer.

Craig, I understand you are simply ‘flying a kite’ with this piece, but it does strike me that you seem to want to avoid commemorating ANZAC Day in church (and possibly avoid celebrating a ‘Christmas’ service that nominal visitors to church on that day might expect) as a way of being deliberately 'different' to the world around us. But there's being 'different' and there's being 'isolationist'.

Now, of course, we are called to be ‘in the world but not of the world’. However, there are many aspects of Australian life and culture that Christians and churches should engage with as a way of pointing to the gospel, and ANZAC Day is certainly one event that lends itself well to this.

I can’t think of an ANZAC Day in the last few years when I haven’t had a fruitful conversation with someone – a conversation that would not otherwise have happened. Having ANZAC Day acknowledged in church briefly last Sunday provided context and encouragement for the conversation I had later in the day with someone.

Well, I certainly don't want to be isolationist. But I am something of a believer in Martin Luther's "Two Kingdoms", and that things should be done in the appropriate place. I'm not diminishing Anzac Day - I'm encouraging Christians to go to the appropriate commemorations to show their respect.

And personally, I just don't think it creates the "cultural connection" that people here are suggesting it does. I really don't.

"and that things should be done in the appropriate place. I'm not diminishing Anzac Day - I'm encouraging Christians to go to the appropriate commemorations to show their respect."

Maybe it would be easier if you listed to us what is appropriate to do in church? What can be celebrated/commemorated/mourned in church?

Ron - I think Jesus is the primary focus of church.

Craig, I wouldn't like to see a church taken over by a secular celebration, but I like the idea of Christians being able to celebrate in a Christian way as a Christian church.

Jesus, praising God and prayer etc will always be the primary focus of what we do on Sunday.

There is no reason why we cannot bring particular days that have relevance to our society into our services. It is 1 day in the calendar year - and usually only a short piece, are you that worried that we are losing Christ in our services?

Remember - the men and women that fight for you to have the freedom to worship are the ones you think we should commemorate in church.

As David says - being able to celebrate/commemorate certain occasions in a Christ like manner to show relevance to the society we live in.

Some people believe Anzac Day is irredeemably pagan. Ben Myers says the thought of an Anzac Day church service makes him go into an anaphylactic shock.

I don't think I'd want an Anzac service every year, but when Anzac Day is a Sunday, it seems peculiar not to commemorate it in a Christian way.

woot - out of the hat we draw ANZAC day this year!

so glad we can find the time to remember our brother and sister who believe that died for us.

Please excuse my passion for a group of people seem like their efforts only belong outside the church boundaries.

I sincerely hope we never get a day for our other service men and women who are in the police force/fire brigade/nursing and the like. We wouldn't want to justify why their acts cannot be remembered in church for 1 day.

end soap box.

We wouldn't want to justify why their acts cannot be remembered in church for 1 day.

There are a million worthy people out there. What about -

* Firemen
* Ambos
* Nurses
* Police
* Doctors
* Teachers
* SES workers
* Child care workers
* Volunteers
* NGO employees
* Scientists
* Farmers
* Homeless shelter workers
etc etc etc

Are you going to honour them all?

Craig, are you saying that as we can't acknowledge all, we should therefore acknowledge none?

I give to a small number of Christian missions and charitable organisations. I can't give to them all. Does that mean I should give to none if I can't give to all?

I understand that about 120,000 Australians have died overseas in service of our country. This has hugely impacted our country. During the First and Second World Wars, about one in two families were bereaved of a brother or sister, uncle, aunt, etc. And nearly everyone lost someone close to them.

This is surely something to remember and acknowledge. And when that day of remembrance falls on a Sunday, surely we should join in, in a Christian way.

And when that day of remembrance falls on a Sunday, surely we should join in, in a Christian way.

I don't believe so, for the reasons outlined above.

But I imagine we will all have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Well Craig, perhaps we will disagee on this one, but I refer you to your list of occupations. I would say yes – if these are people in your congregation – they all have unique roles to play in society at large, they all experience trails, stresses and the whole stuff of life – so they all need to be pastored.

But – there are some people who experience a degree of danger and discipline in the exercising of their duty associated with their jobs which is far above what is expected of a normal citizen. This is not limited to Defence Force personnel, but extends to Police, Fire fighters etc. Hence they receive an extra degree of support from society because society expects more of them than of others. The question for us is where do we, as the Christian church fit in with this construct? Should we?

TO BE CONTINUED

CONTINUTING 1

Now, for Luther’s “Two Kingdoms”. I am at a loss as to why you refer to this doctrine in this debate. My understanding is that his doctrine is about the two reigns of God. the earthly or left-hand kingdom and the heavenly or right hand kingdom.

I am led to understand that this doctrine serves to:
• to help Christians live as God’s people in a fallen and sinful world. It says that you do not need to renounce the world and live in a monastery in order to be holy, for the world is God’s world and it is good, in spite of human sin, because God created it good.
• to make it clear that although God is love and rules his church by love and forgiveness, he cannot rule the unbelieving world by love but needs the force of the law to prevent wicked people from destroying the world and its order, and hurting others.

MORE CONTINUATION

CONTINUING 2

• to guide the church in its relations with the world, especially government, so that it understands its mission in the world to preach the gospel and to pray for all people in authority, as well as its responsibility to speak out against government whenever necessary. The two kingdoms doctrine does not call for a separation of church and state but for a proper distinction between them.

In a nutshell the doctrine of the two kingdoms and two reigns of God teach that God is the ruler of the whole world and that he rules the world in two ways. He rules all people, Christians and non-Christians, in his earthly kingdom through the agency of secular government, hence through the law (ie by means of the sword or force). Conversely, he rules all Christians in his spiritual kingdom (and hence the church) with his right hand through the gospel (ie by the means of grace).

But – Luther wrote in the context of his times. I am not sure I agree with all his premises and will need to do some further theological reflection on this. However, I will affirm that we are living in Australia in the year 2010. As a church we are constantly seeking to engage the world – and you are right, just to focus on ANZAC Day is not adequate – but it is a contribution.

I apologise for my earlier post - not the best of communicators in text, much better in voice usually :-)

In doing what you suggest Craig, we isolate ourselves from people that Christ asks us to reach out too.

As to your list above - I would love to acknowledge them in some sort of way even if it is to simply have a prayer spot for them at the beginning of the service.

It baffles me that you think this way and I too think we have to agree to disagree.

I wonder what people whom attend churches that have memorabilia of dead war members in their churches think of this conversation?

Craig
Get married to your girlfriend and then listen to your wife like all sensible Christian men do

Get married to your girlfriend and then listen to your wife like all sensible Christian men do

haha ;-)

Regarding the "Two Kingdoms", it's got to be admitted that there are different interpretations of what Luther meant. I believe the fundamental idea is this - we are citizens of two different kingdoms, the heavenly and the earthly. We can fully participate in both kingdoms, as both are under God, but we should not inappropriately seek to mix the two. One obvious area of application, and one that drove Luther's thesis, was politics.

But many Christians think that the idea can be applied in terms of culture as well. I've written a bit in the past as to how this can apply to music. Briefly, I think the Christian cultural ghettos we form are a bad thing.

But lets think about it is as regards to Anzac Day. It is very telling that some of the commenters on this thread have spoken about a specifically "christian" commemoration of this day. This gets to the heart of the problem.

I would argue that we are mixing the two kingdoms. Rather than have a "christian" celebration of Anzac Day in church, we Christians should go out and participate in the relevant cultural expressions of Anzac Day in the community, as citizens of the community.

cont

Some people on this thread have complained that my idea would further isolate the church from the world. I believe the exact opposite is true. This actually gets to the heart of old and new ways of doing local mission.

The old school way of local mission was to make church as attractive and consumable and (even) "world-like" as possible, in order to attract people from the community to church. So you did things in church that the world would recognise, turning it into a pale little reflection of the outside world.

The new school way of local mission, (often called missional or, unhelpfully, incarnational), says that we shouldn't spend time trying to make church attractive and "world-like". Rather, church should be church. But what we need is for Christians to get out of the pews and to participate in the real world, and that mission will happen as we engage with the world.

Rather than asking the world to come to us, we go to the world.

So you see anything to do with ANZACs in church as being similar to allowing sex before marriage? A lowering of standards?

Do I read this correctly?

So you see anything to do with ANZACs in church as being similar to allowing sex before marriage?

What..?

I see no correlation at all...

The correlation is that you lower the standards of the church to be relevant to society -saying sex before marriage is allowed so we don't isolate ourselves from people.

Ron, that is not the argument I'm making. The argument I'm making is the one I've explained (at length) above.

ok - I have been informed of how I have miss read this by my wonderful wife. Verbally is always easier for me haha.

In my defence - unless you can come up with biblical reasons for this then it will only ever be personnel opinion.

Good Morning All,

My first point since I last wrote is this:

There seems to be some nastiness creeping into the debate. Debasing comments. That is not on.

My second point is this – let’s keep the debate on a reasoned basis. There are various dimensions to this – both ecclesial and missional.

I would affirm Craig’s comments about keeping Church as Church – the Community of God’s people within this world. I perhaps might disagree on how that aspect is expressed in his congregation, given the tenor of this debate – but I do not know for sure – I have never been apart of his specific congregation. Nevertheless, I agree with this premise.

TO BE CONTINUED

CONTINUING 1

From a pastoral perspective, I think that ANZAC Day is significant for Christians as well as Non-Christians in our society. We can – in Church – commemorate ANZAC Day in a Christian way. In doing so, we contribute to providing a ‘model’ of how the people of God deal with these matters. This is not ‘Old School’ – it is ‘New School’. The Old School treated these things as add on within a Morning or Evening Prayer Service, focused ANZAC Day on those who had been through World War Two, and some how thought that this is relevant. The ‘New School’ from my perspective points to a pastoral theological intersection between the Bible and what people are experiencing in life. This includes ANZAC Day, because most of us have either known someone who has been to a War Zone or been there themselves. (be it a relative or a friend, or a friend of a friend) I have been to a War Zone myself. Australia has been sending personnel to War Zones consistently for the last two decades. – if you include places like Somalia and Rwanda. Rwanda was particularly traumatising for some of those who went.


TO BE CONTINUED

CONTINUING 2

With respect to the community ANZAC commemoration. This is not a Christian event. But this can be a Christian influenced event, and many RSL sub-branches are keen for local Christian ministers to be involved. The same is not necessarily true of those ANZAC services organised by other institutions. My view here is that we maintain our Christian influence as best we can.

About the dimension of being relevant to the world. I think I am the person who first used the term ‘isolationist’. I did so in the context of ‘being deemed irrelevant and isolationist’ by the community at large. Doing Church have some central aspects. Highlighting the importance of understanding the bible is the most central. By doing so, we declare the goodness of God not only to ourselves, but by extension to the world. My relationship with my Lord Jesus and through the power of the Holy Spirit, assist me with my relationship with the world. It is important then, when expounding the scriptures, that we have a good understanding of the world at large. Also, when we expound the scriptures, we take account of what is actually happening with people, both Christian and non-Christian. Again, I come back to my taken slightly out of context verse – “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life?” (John 6:68) –

After all - the context of this debate is about day to day Christian life. That’s the space we have been given on the web page.

The place we meet for church is Bathurst Public School. Festooning the front wall of the school hall are three noticeboards which you would need to dissociate yourself from if you were holding a Christian Anzac commemoration.

The boards have lists of many folk from Bathurst who died serving their country [and our town] in the wars. Above these names is written, in bold letters

FOR GOD, KING AND COUNTRY

It seems to be declaring that these folk get a free ticket to heaven because of their war service.

I don't think that is what it declares at all. Back in the first 2 World Wars the common statements made where "God, Queen/King and Country" because the primary religions where Christian based (whether they believed or not is another question). i.e Catholic.

We will never know if those names are in Heaven and it is not for us to judge. I can assure you though from a military prospective that when the phrase "God,Queen and Country" is said people do not think they have a ticket to Heaven.

This topic has never been about whether the person serving was saved - only about if we should be acknowledging the day in some way, manner or form in Church.