AUDIO
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Archbishop Peter Jensen's Christmas Message 2011 on the centrality of Jesus to human history
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We are truly in the midst of a pornography epidemic.
The porn industry in Australia has an estimated turnover of $2 billion per annum and world wide figures show that pornography accounts for 12% of all websites, 25% of all search engine requests, 8% of email traffic and 35% of all peer to peer downloads.
We are not immune to this is our Christian world and from US statistics we read:
* April 6, 2007: 70% of Christians admitted to struggling with porn in their daily lives. (From a non-scientific poll taken by XXXChurch, as reported by CNN).
* In a 2000 Christianity Today survey, 33% of clergy admitted to having visited a sexually explicit Web site. Of those who had visited a porn site, 53% had visited such sites "a few times" in the past year, and 18% visit sexually explicit sites between a couple of times a month and more than once a week.
These are hard realities for us to face, and I am seeing it in my counselling room each week. Christian men, active in ministry ,struggling with an addiction to pornography.
However shocking this is, I want to focus today on those whom I term the "silenced sufferers" - the wives of these men.
Not surprisingly, research shows us that women (and the minority of male partners of pornography users) are greatly affected by their partner's sexual addiction:
* 42 percent of surveyed adults indicated that their partner's use of pornography made them feel insecure. (Marriage Related Research, Mark A. Yarhouse, Psy.D. Christian Counseling Today, 2004 Vol. 12 No. 1).
However, what makes living with their partner's addiction doubly hard is their being unable to share this burden with anyone. The fact that one's Christian husband has an addiction to pornography is shaming, which silences them. Where they would usually be able to share and pray with their best friend about their struggles in life, this is one secret they are unable to share.
Added to this, they wish to respect their husband's privacy, and would not talk about this with anyone without his permission. Unsurprisingly, many of their menfolk have not come to a place in dealing with their addiction where making this knowledge public, even in a very limited way, is allowable. Furthermore, their husband may be receiving support through attending counselling and group therapy, which leaves the wife even more isolated.
Meg Wilson in “Hope After Betrayal” describes her shock as her husband fully confesses the extent of his addiction; "Dazed at first, I didn't see God: I could barely breathe. I remember feeling nothing except my legs shaking beneath me. All I could do was sit and listen, and shudder under unthinkable images unfolding before me". Another wife, Tammy, says that she felt as though she were covered in black sticky tar. "Shame was mixed with unbearable fear and dread".
Meg was fortunate to live near a church where there was a support group for wives of sexually addicted men. Sharing her pain and shame after an additional confession from her husband, Meg admits to seeing no hope in the situation, but their listening acceptance of her at that point was a "salve for her hurting heart".
Ultimately, with God's help, she and her husband found their way though and out of this dark valley of their lives. She had been warned by her support group leader to expect a five year period of healing which seemed like a lifetime to her.
Supported by the women around her, she also turned to God for ministry to heal her broken places. She learned how to show grace to her husband as he went on his own healing journey. The road was not easy, nor was it predictable, but the illumination for the dark places that she received along the way from friends, her support group and from God, assisted her passage.
Women like Meg, and their husbands, are in your church and mine.
I remember speaking with a non Christian woman I worked with many years ago who told me that she saw no harm in pornography. In her own words, she said "sex doesn't hurt anyone." At the time as a young man, I remember being so taken aback, I didn't know what to say to her. I was dumbfounded that a someone, especially a middle aged woman, could believe that.
I wish I could have that conversation with her again...
I think men are going to struggle with this because there will always be some sexual failing somewhere - probably carefully hidden from the view of all our Christian friends.
There is no doubt about the damage that pornography causes to the guys but it would be good to have more specific information if you know of a good source.
Unless warned about these dangers… One that you highlight here is the huge danger to happy relationships. That should be enough really but there is obviously a lot more to consider here.
One huge problem is availability.
When I was a teenager if you wanted pornography you had to go to the back of the newsagent and pick up the sealed magazine, carry it to the grim looking lady on the counter and pay good money as you encounter the disapproving looks. What you got was a topless girl - I think - I was always too scared to buy one.
Today you just have to type one of thousands of words into google and that is the beginning of an addiction. This is part of the problem; the ubiquitous nature of pornography makes it seem normal and more or less socially acceptable – and safe.
So most of our society is thinking it is not a problem and the Christians are too embarrased to talk about it.
What is the answer, Nicky
For my part, I think this problem needs to be tackled head on by Christian fathers, pastors and others in leadership situations with the assumption that someone at some level will most likely be having problems with porn or other potential sexual temptation - in our families and/or churches. At a very basic level, we need to go back to the teachings found in places like the proverbs 5, or 6: 24 ff which talk about the allurements of the immoral woman and the effects of being captivated "by her beauty."
There are dedicated ministries to sexual temptations, such as the Valiant Man course, and a number of books & other ministry resources on the subject (eg. Every Man's Battle). Men must be proactive about sexual purity, firstly for themselves, and not be prudish about making themselves accountable to one another and for one another.
I know the article talks about the Silenced Sufferers, but I believe strongly that the onus is on men to step up and take the lead in dealing with what is potentially destroying countless lives in our pleasure-seeking culture.
I believe that having this discussion is the beginning of the answer - we have to start talking about this as often as we talk about other sinful behaviour - in sermons, in our home groups, our prayer triplets. We have to acknowledge that this is something that happens in our church community on a frequent basis. Then we must decide how to tackle the problem and how to talk about it. One of the main problems to openness is the moral tone which is used to talk about this matter and users of pornography. The more condemning we are, the less likely it is that sufferers (users and partners) will come forward and seek help.
The verses in Proverbs, whilst seeming to place the "blame" on the immoral woman, are more about warning men to avoid such visual stimulation. Research clearly shows men's propensity to being strongly stimulated sexually be visual prompts. once this happens, the images and responses can become "wired" into neural pathways. One of my past clients could fantasise about quite "unsexy" pictures of women in an ordinary womans' magazine. Hence warnings re maintaining sexual purity by staying away from stimulatory material is all valid. The good news is that the brain is plastic, and with the right help, can be "re wired".
So ....talking, understanding, providing appropriate supports (counselling, groups, accountability partners, computer shields)and understanding will go a along way to dealing with this.
When you realise that these addictions are a relief from emotional pain and depression, it is easier to think of sufferers with more compassion and not just condemnation. Everyone involved is a sufferer.
At this point you begin to realise that the redemption Jesus bought on the cross is needed at a very deep level. Our Lord comes to free us from sin and its effects and we begin to see just some of what that envolves.
...redeemed to be free to be the men God meant us to be - wow! What redemption! What a loving God!
I'd like to suggest that one of the main reasons why this blog hasn't attracted as much comment as some others is that basically everyone agrees with you. As a frequenter of the Sydney Anglican blogs, my observation is that the blogs that generate the most comments are those where people passionately hold differing views.
In contrast, I doubt that many of the frequenters of the Sydney Anglicans website are going to disagree with the views Nicky's expressed. Like greed, we pretty much all agree that pornography is a bad thing. But like greed, it's something that many of us struggle with.
(a) a suitable analogy to open up the discussion further might be to view porn as a drug, and the porn industry as equivalent to the drug industry;
(b) this might help the moral tone of our discussions by enabling us to properly distinguish between users and suppliers.
Even more harmful is the damage done to innocent children. And as I said the government can't muster the political will to even block that kind of "material" - I am lost for a word to use.
Mr Rudd is a Christian it seems. And I know politics is complex and there are lots of disenting vooices crying "freedom of the press and the internet" but illegal material is illegal material and no-body can complain about it being blocked, surely.
#12 Craig, there are at least some answers.
To start with I noticed the comment above that sexual addiction is not actually about sex.
And that the brain can be "re-wired". Nicky, some might call that process repentence and sanctification.
And men of courage and honesty need to say something so that it becomes a bit easier to talk about. I won't qt the "evil flourishes..." qt but...
Sexual addiction is FAR more severe than the man or woman who has difficulty exercising the maturity and self control of not looking at porn. A sexual addict's entire existence is dominated by their compulsion. It gets in the way of their ability to conduct a regular life and makes healthy relationships impossible to maintain. This is far more severe than the friction created between a husband and wife over her hard feelings regarding his viewing pornography. The typical Christian who views pornography would not be diagnosed as having a "sexual addiction" by any competent psychiatrist. Overstating the nature of the problem like this (calling it an addiction) simply makes it easier for the sinner to dismiss.
I don't think we are talking about an occasional visit to a website with addiction to pornography. I know of cases where it has become so bad people lose their jobs over it.
But I take your point about sexual addictions - there are others that are serious, destructive problems that have nothing to do with pornography. I don't dissagree with that proposition at all.
Do you agree that most addictions have their origin as an anesthetic for emotional pain that is often buried?
@ David re "unwiring" - I think we are into a territory here where both real anatomical differences can be seen and there are spiritual changes/experiences involving repentance and sanctification that we really can't describe totally in concrete terms that are part of the mystery of the life of faith, something beyond mere biology.
Just as disobedience is now replaced with the nice middle class euphemism - "struggling with".
Same with "addiction", I think - a good word to recognise some of the damaging impact of sin that requires special care and help to overcome, but not to be used in soft-pedaling of sin.
It wasn't clear to me whether or not Nicky was talking about just people whose lives were being seriously harmed by their consumption of pornography (such as your example of people losing their jobs for failing to be responsible at the work place) or whether she was including those who "occasionaly visit to a website". My observation has been that often men who visit porn sites (whether regularly or occasionally - as in three or four times a month) are still often considered by their wives to be "addicted" to pornography because they have been told it's wrong, asked to stop and continue to visit the sites. If they say they want to stop but are struggling then it is even more likely to be considered "sexual addiction". Even if it does not disrupt their lives (beyond the hard feelings it creates in their spouses). Just to be clear, I'm not defending it or trying to minimize the sin - just put it in perspective. We all have sins that we fail to remain completely free of yet to brand such sins as "addiction" is wrong I think. Such language weakens the meaning of addiction (and offers a false excuse - "I can't help it. I'm an addict!").
To be frank, I think that many women overreact to the issue of their husband viewing pornography. Again, not to defend the sin but the reaction is often far more emotional than rational. It evokes feelings of inadequacy and jealousy in the spouse as though the man is actually cheating on her.
I agree there are at least two categories of users of pornography - those who feel they are in control of their usage and those for whom it is an unwanted behaviour - and as you say both of these are sinful. However, as you might expect, I cannot agree with your statement concerning women being more emotional than rational about this behaviour
He IS actually cheating on her - he is involving the sexual part of his being with another partner, albeit a virtual one. Her response is thus an appropriate one.
Doesn't this discussion of sin (hamartiology) show how complex and twisted is its penetration and insinuation into our lives.
I agree that the danger of describing a problem as "an addiction" may minimise the personal responsibility.
But I guess whatever leads a person to seek help and then hopefully come to the point where they understand their own part in the damage they cause to to themselves and those that love them is progress.
I actually think that perspective is the beginning of Christian maturity - and it is a hard place to be. We need grace and the love of God around us to even go there.
What you have said on this forum impresses the sox off me, Dan
I am also all for preventing this particular temptation of pornography from becoming a problem - if possible. The schools need to do what they can.
Nicky, it is good to see books that address the theology involved in Christian counselling.
Maybe the reason the topic is not discussed more in our church communities is because our pastors, group leaders and we would have to face up to our guilt. Certainly by the statistics it seems a large proportion of men in churches are struggling with this issue. The lack of openness about this issue just perpetuates the isolation of these people.
If congregations talked openly and compassionately about the issue, and educated themselves about the underlying factors I'm sure more men would be empowered to face up to their demons and deal with their issues.
Thank you so much, Nicky, for posting on this. I feel like you have given people like me a voice. My husband (DH) told me 2 years ago that he had been addicted to porn since before we were married 6 years ago. At the time I was devastated, disgusted and physically sick. I felt ashamed, like I had failed as a wife and like I had no one to turn to. The man I had honoured and respected had sinned against me in this terrible way and even worse, had lied to me about it for years. DH on the other hand felt liberated, having just confessed a sin that had plagued him for so long.
In the months that followed, there were some things that helped a great deal:
- installing filtering software on our computers. We used SafeEyes and put me and a friend on a list of email addresses to get sent usage reports. I don’t envisage ever removing the software.
- DH confessing his sin to our minister and several close male friends was good for him, but also made me see he was serious about overcoming his addiction and loving me.
- We went to see a Christian sexual health doctor/counsellor, who helped us to talk about DH’s addiction and helped me to normalize the problem.
...
- I talked to a friend, who coincidentally had a husband struggling with sexual sin. We now meet up regularly and talk about our marriages and her support in the early days was invaluable to me.
- I was too ashamed to walk into a bookshop and buy a book on the subject, but fortunately I found lots of useful info on the Internet. www.XXX Church.org was particularly helpful.
- I learned that DH’s problem was not sexual (and it was definitely not because of any inadequacy of mine) and it wasn’t really even the porn. His problem was that he was not dealing with anxiety and stress in a healthy way, rather he was using porn to release his negative emotions. For him, the anxieties had their root in abuse and neglect he suffered growing up and he needed help to overcome this. He had lots of counselling and in fact it was counseling that prompted him to be honest with me in the first place.
We’ve now (almost) come out the other side and have a better, stronger relationship because of our struggle. As a result of the experience we have been motivated to be open about our problems with people at church. The Bible study group we lead all know what we’ve been through and I’d like to think that people in the same situation would seek us out. One of the worst things for me was feeling like we were the only ones.
Thanks for this article, Nicky, but what is the source for these statistics? Although I've only skimmed through this thread, I agree with much of what has been said. One can only be sympathetic towards those suffering from the collateral damage of pornography.
However: there seem to be two underlying assumptions, neither of which is supported by actual statistics -
(a) that the overwhelming majority of consumers of pornography are males; and
(b) these males have wives!
Nicky: is your article based primarily on your counselling experience? If so, then might I suggest that further research is required. For instance, I recall reading somewhere (I do wish I could be more specific...) that over the last decade or so, the percentage of women engaging with pornography has increased markedly. Surely their husbands (if any) would be adversely affected? Alas, I see no reason to presume that this isn't also the case in Christian circles. My point is simply this: everybody is damaged by pornography. In particular, within marriage, it militates against healthy sexual intimacy - to the detriment of women and men.
Your thoughts on this?...
I had clients just yesterday, and another during the week, both of whom said now that it was out in the open that viewing porn had in fact made them
a. more irritable (they were feeling guilty) with their wives and families
b. Less available to their wives and families- both practically and intimately
c. they themselves thought without anyone telling them that they HAD in fact been "cheating" on their wives
d. they were glad it was out in the open.
e. both husband and wife were getting help and they thought their connection was much much more intimate and "connected" than before
Each of these men and women would agree (now, in hindsight not while it was happening) that the offender had been "cheating".
If viewing pornography is indeed infidelity then it follows that it is Biblical grounds for divorce.
Just to be clear, I'm not disputing that pornography is sinful nor that those engaged in it are doing harm to themselves as well as their relationships with God and their spouse. The degrees of harm vary from person to person. But to recon it as cheating on one's spouse is elevating the severity of the behavior beyond it's proper place.
"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
I can't imagine anyone looking at porn isn't looking lustfully.
I would say that there is more potential damage from pornography from those not married.
For people who are married, there is the balance that they hopefully have some idea what appropriate intimacy looks like. The trouble with and virtual reality and in particular pornography is that it sets up expectations that are impossible for a flesh and blood person to achieve and from what I can see over long periods leads people more and more away from reality and therefore from the hope of having healthy relationships in the future.
I haven't raised this yet on this thread but I am fairly certain that the enemy and his minions are very actively involved in this area. It is destructive and therefor exactly their province - just as rats are attracted to garbage, demons are attracted to anything that destroys people and families and anything good that God has made.
And we can bet they promote it.
I'm not one to see demons behind every bust but as we see how Jesus dealt with them continually - we should be on our guard; especially in this area we are discussing.
What would be ideal is if every Christian considers pornography as a red-hot stove and doesn't dare to touch it. Any short term gratification comes at a huge cost if future happy and amazing intimacy is lost or damaged.
I am open to any good ideas on how to get this message across when I speak to kids at schools which I do occasionally under the auspice of being a Christian writer.
Nicky..
@David/Nicky #39: I presume you mean "I would say that there is more potential damage from pornography to those not married."? If so, then I utterly concur with what follows! The difficulty, of course, in warning adolescents about dangerous things like pornography is that it heightens their curiosity. Parental guidance is the key...
The Australian Institute Report in Mar 2003 looking at Youth and Pornography states that 38% of 16-17 yr old boys and 2% of 16-17yr old girls have deliberately sought out sex sites. Similarly, 73% of boys and just 11% of girls have, viewed X-rated videos. In a non random survey of 1000 porn users for the http://www.thepornreportbook.com/ only 1 in 5 users were women. So, yes women are using, but not at the same rates as men.
@ Meg, thank you for courage in sharing your story of hope with this blog. I hope many will be encouraged by it.
Anyway, I have a personal story of my own (about being on the receiving end of much pain that arose in part from a former girlfriend's 'taste' for pornography), but I don't think it would be particularly edifying to share the details in this forum; suffice it to say that that episode from my life motivated my slight contrariness earlier.
Let it not be overlooked that blokes - single or married - can be hurt by others' indulgence in pornography, too. That's all I ask.
In the absence of filtering on one's internet account at the internet service provider level, it is up to individual users to set up filtering on their computers. On my computer, I use Covenant Eyes filtering software together with Covenant Eyes accountability software. This software is highly effective and sanitises the entire internet. I have better things to be doing with my life than resisting the temptation of pornography on the internet which I would prefer was not there in the first place. So the Covenant Eyes filter blocks it out and the accountability software ensures that the filter cannot be circumvented without being detected. It is a foolproof system and costs only $10 USD per month.
Furthermore, this filtering and accountability can easily be set up on any other computer or mobile device simply by installing the software onto them. One’s personal filter settings that are held in one’s Covenant Eyes account are stored on a database at the Covenant Eyes head office. The software installed on one’s computer or mobile device obtains these filter settings from the Covenant Eyes database via the internet and enforces them on the computer or device being used. These settings are highly configurable and can be tailored to the individual.
Continued…
There is an entire world out there that is badly broken and urgently needs fixing. Many of its problems and the stress that they cause (eg. financial) are what is causing men to retreat and try to seek relief with readily available pornography. This retreat is not the answer. The answer is to ‘push back’ against these problems and solve them. Many of these problems are political in nature and require dissent. Pornography has been allowed to be made readily available on the internet in order to reduce the likelihood that those creating these problems will be challenged and the likelihood that these problems will be resolved.
Edmund Burke, a practising Anglican of the 18th century, God bless his departed soul, said that “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothingâ€. We might well say today that all that is required for evil to triumph is for otherwise good men to sit around looking at pornography instead of challenging the evil.
Thanks for your honesty re your past situation.
I wondered if someone would cite that passage. I would respectfully submit to you that you are misunderstanding Christ's point here. He is not saying that looking at a woman lustfully is literally the same thing as adultery. He is pointing out the futility of someone trying to keep all of the law - both the letter and spirit - and thus attempt to stand before God free of sin under his own power. If you are to take this passage as saying that the two are literally one in the same then you have to accept the following conclusions:
1) A woman has Biblical grounds for divorce (adultery) if her husband ever looks at another woman with lust in his heart. This means that every married woman has fair cause to divorce her husband. After all, he has committed adultery against her literally thousands of times!
2) Every one of us here is a murderer since I suspect we all have one time or another been "angry with our brother" or done the equivalent of calling someone "raca". It would therefore be just for us to be put to death or at least imprisoned for the offense.
So your spouse is both a murderer and an adulterer thousands of times over if you take these passages in Matthew 5 literally.
I appreciate your point. As an off the cuff remark, my point was merely to say that there is some element of "adulterous" or unfaithful behaviour in the situation of a person viewing porn for sexual pleasure. I understand that there are issues of bondage/addiction, release from the realities or stresses of life etc and the very real possibility that put in a real life situation many spouses would probably not "acutally" commit adultery - I'm guessing this.
Without going into a language study of Matthew 5, it is interesting that Jesus merely says "lusting after her". There is an element of desire that Jesus says that falls below the standard of the law. Just as in the same way my act of unrighteous anger is also an act of breaking God's law. I don't personally hold that an act of viewing pornography is grounds for divorce, just as looking at another person lustfully is grounds for divorce.
The whole issue of pornography is very, very messy. This discussion has highlighted this, if nothing else. However, I am concerned that we do not lose sight of it as being sinful behaviour. I also accept the need for understanding that people, whether they are caught in a trap or on danger of it need help in a non self righteous way. We all need the grace of Christ, after all! Anyhow, thanks for your point.
In your post at 33 you said the following as your last sentence:
"Indeed, I suspect many men are happy to see their wives being sexual as long as their consumption of pornography isn't a substitute for sex with the husband. I'm sure that many men see their partner's consumption of pornography as a "turn on"."
It is obvious from this quote that you have an extremely tenuous grip on the relationship which a Christian should have to pornography which is none at all.
What is your agenda for posting on this thread?
I think you have entirely misread Dan's post #33.
He was commenting on what he thinks is a widespread view among the general male population. He did not say it was what he thinks or what he thinks most Christian men think.
Please try to read people's comments a bit more carefully before attributing nefarious motives to them. And don't be so quick to accuse people of having agendas, it doesn't exactly engender open debate.
How about you just write my posts for me?
- but I cannot (as yet). Where is the evidence for your assertion? On the contrary, what I see is an ever-increasing rise in idolatry (pornography being merely one form of it) throughout our culture, requiring Christians to be ever more countercultural. Alas, relatively few of us really are...
It seems to me that the point of the Matt 5 passage is that, for men at least, the "mere" act of looking at a woman lustfully creates an emotional bond (even if it is only with a picture) of the kind that belongs only in marriage. We should never allow ourselves to lose sight of this.
With various things happening in the world such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the global financial crisis and other suspect occurrences, people are waking up in wholesale to the following scenario that you have outlined:
"Some years ago, I read a book titled The Global Trap - written in the mid-1990s, it was a damning critique of globalisation even back then! - a basic thesis of which was that 80% of us would be enslaved to an obscenely rich 20%, the 80% kept passive by things like "tittytainment" (i.e. pornography). In other words, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World with more than a dollop of Orwellian Big Brother."
In short, people are waking up to the fact that they are being manipulated. The evidence for this awakening can be found in the vast amount of traffic that internet webpages dealing with these suspect occurrences are receiving. As people learn about these external problems which are adversely impacting their lives, it is absolutely inevitable that they will seek to engage with these problems and resolve them. As they do this, it becomes painfully obvious to them that things like pornography are an acute distraction that will prevent them from successfully engaging with and resolving these problems. As a result, people will turn their attention away from pornography and focus it on these external issues.
This shift is occurring right now.
My agenda here is not to promote, defend or make excuses for pornography. Rather, it was to put the sin into perspective. It is rarely a case of "sexual addiction" (that is, of all the people who view pornography the vast majority are not "sexual addicts"). If you take issue with this that's fine but please read from the start to understand why I say this. Second, I consider it improper to accuse a man who has looked at a "girly magazine" or visited an "adult website" as having "cheated on his wife". I suppose that one could argue that breaking any trust is a form of "cheating" but the words "cheating on one's spouse" are commonly understood to mean adultery and viewing pornography is simply not adultery. I suspect that most women with husbands who have had affairs would agree that it was immeasurably worse than if he had simply read a pornographic magazine. Indeed both are examples of sin and should not be defended. But to accuse the man who views naked photos of women of "cheating on his wife" or "being an addict" is far more likely to get his back up than a measured approach that identifies the sin for what it is and deals with it from there. Overstating the case invites anger and denial.
God has only permitted the act of sexual intercourse within the marriage relationship. God has expressly forbidden the act of sexual intercourse outside of the marriage relationship. The act of sexual intercourse in marriage is the analogue in this life of the union that will take place between Jesus Christ and His bride, the church, in heaven. In this context of truth and reality, the only legitimate focus of the sexual attention of the husband is his wife, and vice versa. This is analogous to the demand that God places on believers for their undivided spiritual attention. Any focus of a husband's sexual attention away from his wife and on to something else is a betrayal of their marriage union which was brought into existence by their encounter of sexual intercourse after being wed. It was through this sexual intercourse that the husband and wife became one flesh. To this end, a husband's viewing of pornography, which you have rightly defined as including "naked photos of women", constitutes unfaithfulness to the marriage relationship. It is entirely irrelevant that the husband has not had actual sexual intercourse with somebody other than his wife.
As a consequence of this definition of unfaithfulness, any husband who is confronted by his wife’s disapproval of him looking at pornography and who is unwilling to admit it for the sin that it is and take steps to stop looking at pornography, such as by simply desisting or,
Continued…
I am a married man who is an anthropologist engaged in research on, say, the effects of pornography - which necessarily entails me looking at the stuff in order to see for myself what causes the outcomes I'm researching. Although I'm looking at it with a cold, dispassionate, professional eye, it occasionally 'gets to me' by arousing my libido. Is this - either the mere observation, or the side-effect of arousal - grounds for my wife divorcing me? I would think not. Granted, the missus might not like the work I'm doing - but that's a different issue, surely, to a husband who has no 'professional' or 'scientific' need to look at pornography yet does so as some kind of leisure activity. Her displeasure could, I suppose, become one factor among many others in wishing to divorce me later on, but the sole grounds for divorce...?
So: Biblically, historiophysical adultery is a legitimate trigger for divorce - an unassailable fact. Indulgence in pornography? Cases such as that above show that it's not so clear-cut vis-a-vis divorce. However, this in no way denies that pornography is relational poison.
(In passing: I wonder whether, or how many, counsellors like Nicky have themselves actually looked at pornography professionally, in order to see what the fuss is all about. I ask this not to agitate mischievously or accuse, but merely out of curiosity. And what would their spouses say?)
Hi Jeremy, Michael and the powers that be, how about a few more stirring controversial, up and at 'em topics next week!
Cheers
A dissident, argumentative Presbyterian itching for a bare knuckle fight!!
Ok, its been one of those weeks......
The argument I made at #55 to #56 was made in the context of the Christian meaning of marriage as defined by Scripture. Therefore the argument I made relates to a believing Christian man and a believing Christian wife who are married.
In this context, the hypothetical scenario you have outlined is invalid because no believing Christian man is going to consider it justifiable in the sight of God to look at pornography for the sake of anthropological research on its effects. He would know the acute danger of becoming addicted to it. However, if you think your hypothetical scenario holds such merit, the onus is on you to validate this scenario by finding me a real-life example of a believing Christian man who looks at pornography for the sake of anthropological research on its effects. Good luck with that!
In relation to your comment about wondering whether Christian counsellors have looked at pornography to "see what all the fuss is aboutâ€, the passion of Christian counsellors is to lead people out of their quagmires, which are often the result of either their own sin or other people’s sin, to a place in which they are unencumbered by the negative effects of this sin. I would suggest to you that Christian counsellors who see the devastating effects of sexual sin on their clients probably every week are going to be highly spiritually motivated and passionate about staying away from things directly associated with that sexual sin such as
Continued…
Rather than trying to think of reasons why somebody might legitimately look at pornography (there are none) such as anthropological research into its effects or Christian counsellors looking at it to “see what the fuss is all aboutâ€, we need to shut pornography down. Pornography does not belong on our computers. It does not belong on our televisions. It does not belong in our newsagents. It does not belong in our service stations. It is the enemy who walks among us with motives that are alien to our well-being.
If you want to effectively, maliciously and callously kill a rat, you put out rat poison. It will die from the inside out which involves a lot of physical pain and physical trauma. If you want to effectively, maliciously and callously kill a person, you bait the person with pornography. If he takes the bait and doesn’t spit it out, he will die from the inside out which involves a lot of spiritual pain (guilt) and spiritual trauma (loss of assurance). The first death will be spiritual. The second death will be physical.
A Christian can effectively shut pornography down by locking down his computer with Covenant Eyes accountability and filtering software, by putting his television out with the garbage where it belongs (and using the internet instead), by staying in the stationery aisle of the newsagent when he needs to buy a pen and by fixing his eyes on the console operator
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Reaslly? I don't think it's nearly that simple - and, as a former academic who lectured and researched at the University of Sydney (and elsewhere), my scenario, or something like it, even restricted to Christian couples, is, I can assure you, quite likely to occur 'in real life' (not that that is relevant to its validity, in my opinion). Yes, research can be dangerous. The sin in pornography is committed only by (a) its active participants, and (b) those responding to it in lust; the comparatively rare 'dispassionate observer' may well not be sinning - I'll leave that to God.
Maybe you've solved the entire problem of pornography. Maybe instead of encouraging Christians to flee pornography they should be encouraged to view it as 'dispassionate observers' so that they're not actually sinning.
You will have gathered, then, that in a tiny percentage of cases, I think it permissible to "look at pornography", notwithstanding the dangers. @Jenny: I'm not saying by any means that this is a good thing; indeed, like Andrew, I truly wish it could be 'uninvented', its creators and distributors prosecuted. But if no Christian ever actually sees pornography (via research: to keep abreast of what's going on - not to seek titillation), how then can we oppose it and its purveyors through debate? We would have no credibility, fighting or arguing against something about which we know nothing - like a reviewer condemning a book or film they themselves have never perused. This must, therefore, include at least some Christian counsellors - otherwise, how could they have any idea what their clients are talking about, beyond their own imaginations?
Yes, I know the Bible says to flee sexual immorality. And I do encourage that among Christians in general. However, facing immorality is sometimes necessary for certain Christians despite the inherent dangers (e.g. those engaged in legitimate research, thereby serving their neighbours). The scriptures also speak of some brethren being weaker or stronger than others in relation to temptation, with the latter submitting to the former. That applies here, too: I know about Covenant Eyes, but don't need it because I'm never tempted to seek out internet (or other) pornography (or have any need to research it). And temptation itself is not a sin, only succumbing to it.
Andrew, I think your position is a bit too simplistically black-and-white, sorry to say.
In spite of your opening non-statement above using the key words "I think", I'll take this opportunity to say that I absolutely repudiate the suggestion that it is permissible for a Christian to look at pornography in any instance.
In relation to what pornography is about, let me spell it out for you. It is about human beings without any clothes on. It is not necessary to look at pornography to understand this.
I admire you for not being tempted by internet pornography. You're well-positioned spiritually to influence other Christians to abandon it.
Well, the sentence to which you refer is definitely a statement; also, I do prefer to think rather than not to think, Andrew. And you haven't "repudiated" anything, merely strongly disagreed (as is your right, of course). Furthermore, I don't need you to "spell out" what pornography is for me: I've seen it for myself, in fact. Have you?
Well, perhaps you haven't... So, do you propose that we should call all of those nasty old sculptures and paintings of naked people in art-galleries "pornography", and smash or burn them (or at least excise the 'naughty bits')? Please, let's not get onto Bill Henson and his photography...
Allow me to refute the legalistic 100% nature of Andrew's position; but before I do so, my own stance is 99.9% in agreement with his - in no way do I condone pornography; I'm simply saying that in certain rare circumstances, the viewing of it is permissible and not a sin:
Let's say a Christian defence-lawyer - yeah, this sounds like one of those lawyer jokes, or an oxymoron! ... but they do exist - is called upon to defend a person charged with possessing child pornography. To make things interesting (and quite defensible), that person claims their computer was inadequately firewalled and had been hijacked (turned into a 'zombie') by unknown hackers who left the offending images on their computer's hard disk - only to be discovered and reported to police when the machine needed repairs. This whole situation is quite feasible - all-too-real and scary. Now, as a matter of due process, though I'm no legal expert, the police would have to supply the lawyer with copies of the images in order for the latter to mount the best possible defence for their client; however disgusting, the lawyer would need to peruse the images, which one would think will also be shown to a jury in court. So what is our putative Christian lawyer to do? By Andrew's black-and-white argument, they must:
ctd...
(b) Pass the case on to a colleague. No dice: that's encouraging a neighbour to sin; or
(c) Resign from their job. Not good enough! - buck-passing: see (b); moreover, by this logic, in case one does encounter such a legal case, no Christian could possibly ever be a lawyer (or, more generally: a newsagent, a petrol-station-attendant, a researching anthropologist, psychologist, counsellor, or ... anything else that might chance upon pornographic material). Yet this idea, of Christians avoiding certain seemingly innocuous professions, at least deserves some teasing-out:
Actually, the Early Church's praxis is rather illuminating here. Early Christians were advised not to attend the theatre, which in those days was apparently a very bawdy affair, routinely full of sexually explicit material. And yet they were not condemned by their brethren if they did so. Likewise, civil converts were counselled not to join the army, lest they find themselves in a circumstance where they are forced to kill or murder another person (who might even be a Christian brother!). But soldier-converts were not told to desert the military.
May such Early-Christian wisdom reign today, rather than ill-considered and simplistic legalism.
This also brings us back to the question of all those who suffer:
- the wives who are hurt by their husband's involvement with and often addiction to pornography and the children of those damaged marriages who do not see healthy romance in their parents relationship - but only pain for which they probably can't identify a cause and blame themselves.
- don't even start me on the abused subjects of pornographic material
- I have spoken aboput the potential damage to yourg people by the muck
Nicky,- there was some discussion in the end.
- and of course the men themselves (Augustine of Hippo: "Sin is its own punishment"), for numerous reasons already covered in this thread
- and (see #31 & #42 above) male partners / husbands of women indulging in pornography. Don't forget us blokes!
One extra comment: Pornography really exists in the minds and hearts of its users; it can be rather slippery to define. (For example: a young and sexually innocent Christian couple who possess a 'how to' manual like the late Dr Alex Comfort's Joy of Sex may well be healthily learning from it in order to heighten the pleasure of their God-given love-life, whereas a hormone-driven single adolescent looking at this book's line-drawings is instead gaining lustful titillation. The very same document is therefore pornography in one context, but not automatically in the other.) The fallout - positive or negative - that users have on others (and themselves) is, therefore, crucial in defining pornography: if the material is merely an idol for lust, then it is definitely pornography, is harmful, and will ultimately hurt others. I almost completely agree with Andrew (above), in that the wisest course for Christians is to "flee immorality" - in all but the tiniest exception of circumstances. For any who are wounded by it (users AND their families), I propose further that they be treated identically to victims of adultery.
I've not met a single person in the last 5 years (man or woman) that hasn't been adversely affected by pornography - whether as a direct victim, a silent victim, a concerned friend or as a ?researcher?. It's reasonable to suggest that the freedom and security provided by webcams has made pornography accessible to everyone. It's unreasonable to define it any longer as a male problem with female victims.
Most pornographic images have the following:
1. At least one male and one female victim.
2. At least one willing male and one willing female participant.
Thus, to presume pornography is a male problem with female victims is to suggest that males have dominion over a woman's right to choose which, apart from being naive, would in any other context attract a feverish objection from most women.
Internet pornography seems to provide as many opportunities for women to abuse their sexuality as it does for men. Men and women choose to participate in pornographic activity, and men and women choose to view it. No statistics are reliable indicators as they presume everyone is truthful about their transgressions.
Pornography ought to be treated as a consequence of our sinful human condition rather than as a consequence of rampant male sexuality or female abuse of sexual power. We need to pray together as we help each other find solutions.
Anyway, some further thoughts on its victimology and approaches to healing (in accordance with Nicky's wishes): In order of causality, pornography wounds:
1. Whether they know it or not, those involved in its manufacture - the primary sufferers;
2. Those indulging in its consumption - secondary sufferers;
3. The secondary sufferers' partners - tertiary sufferers;
4. Other members of the secondary sufferers' families - quaternary sufferers;
5. And, perhaps, acquaintances of all of the above.
(By the way, one efficacious psychotherapy that I forgot to mention in #76 was CBT - Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.)
I think it's correct to say that Nicky's article focusses exclusively on a significant proportion of the 'tertiary sufferers' (that isn't a criticism, by the way!). Not being a psychologist or professional counsellor myself, I can only guess (a) which approaches will help all sufferers, and (b) what remedies are most applicable to specific groups within the above taxonomy. Over to you, Nicky.
This is what Job says of pornography: Job 31:1-12a
"I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a girl.
For what is man's lot from God above,
his heritage from the Almighty on high?
Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?
"If I have walked in falsehood
or my foot has hurried after deceit-
let God weigh me in honest scales
and he will know that I am blameless-
if my steps have turned from the path,
if my heart has been led by my eyes,
or if my hands have been defiled,
then may others eat what I have sown,
and may my crops be uprooted.
"If my heart has been enticed by a woman,
or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
then may my wife grind another man's grain,
and may other men sleep with her.
For that would have been shameful,
a sin to be judged.
It is a fire that burns to Destruction;
To return briefly to points from my earlier posts, Jenny:
1. Such researchers (etc.) are exceedingly rare, but not mythical - i.e. fictional. I gave concrete, realistic examples. Of course they are not "sinless"; but in doing their jobs (of engaging with pornography) it would be presumptuous of us to claim they are sinning. Indeed, as Christians, they may be sacificial servants...
2. Oh yes, I fully agree that such work is not without its dangers!
NB: As Christians, we're called upon to 'love our neighbour' - i.e., everybody, including those "Outside" the Body of Christ (the Church). So this embraces those you mention (categorized vaguely [I admit] in No.5 from my taxonomy at post #78).
At the risk of seeming pedantic: your Job quote is not "about" pornography per se, but it is certainly applicable to it.
1 Corinthians tells Christians to maintain an appropriate seprateness from the world for that is who Christians are - holy and set apart. It calls us not to judge those Outside but rather those inside the church. So to say that it is "presumptious" to claim that the "dispassionate" investigators are sinning. Well, it is certainly not my business to judge whether they're sinning or not, for it is between them & God.
So, they (those Outside) made a huge mess, they clean it up. You're not suggesting that Christians try and handle the Hazardous Waste are you? We should be separate from the world & if it's unfortunately any bro's job then God will provide a way out for them.
Anyway, it would be most churlish of me if I keep diverting attention away from the silenced sufferers of pornography. May the Almighty God our heavenly Father help us to act justly and to love mercy.
Yes, Jenny! - I said so myself in #63.
Not sure about your surrounding points: Aren't we told to 'be in the world but not of the world'? I think you'd agree that we must love the sufferers (silent or not) - and this includes the perpetrators!
I think you would agree that this blog is about helping the silenced sufferers, perhaps someone could start another one for the perpetrators.
@Nicky: time for a wrap-up and/or sequel?